I don't get what the hell people have a problem with. I mean, Emma is amazingly talented and is very attractive. She may not look exactly like Belle, but she's still a good choice. But then again, people are always judgemental of things before it actually happens. I remember when people were hating on the Cinderella remake before a trailer even came out.

^ Yeah, the same with Maleficent :o The same thing will probably happen with the Live-Action Mulan movie as well...

Well, to be fair, the Maleficent movie lived up to it's awfulness, at least in my opinion.

^ It was pretty awful, but still... It's like everything that's new, it's automatic stampled "AWFUL!", you know? :/ Guess some people just like being negative about new things/new movies/certain celebs...

Emma is way too unattractive to play Belle and it's an insult to Belle. She's also too feminist-associated which makes me think the film is going to have some feminist/political message instead of sticking to the original tale.

It's not that some people "just like being negative about new things/new movies/certain celebs... " but some people just don't agree and don't feel the need to keep that opinion to themselves.

^"Way too unattractive". Well, to each their own. I personally think she's the most beautiful woman that ever lived. Besides, someone's looks shouldn't prevent someone from playing a role they want to play.

Also, people said all sorts of opinions about Demi Lovato back in the day and she ended up cutting and being put into rehab. Think twice about what you say.

Oh, and if you aren't a fan of her acting, that's fine. But saying she "isn't talented at all" (to quote another Fanpopper) is simply ridiculous.

No I don't really care if people complain. I try not to complain, but I don't like the choice either. It really doesn't matter to me though. All I'm going to see is Hermione (lol sorry). I feel like Emma is very nice but her acting is cold. I don't care about how she looks too much, but if I had to chose, I'd pick a completely different look for Belle.

I don't get it why peoples already being such negative about Emma as Belle. We don't see her performance as Belle yet, as the movie isn't released at all. So let's wait and when the movie comes out, you can judges her or whatever like you want!

hatelarxene: When the role is supposed to be "known for her beauty" then I think the looks are more than relevant and absolutely should prevent someone from playing that role. I also think Emma Watson is extremely plain-looking and not even very pretty let alone beautiful. There are plenty of other women who are seen as universally beautiful by most races and people so a woman like that should play Belle, not a girl like Emma Watson who only has a small group of people that find her to be "very attractive" let alone "attractive".

Think twice about what you say? Are you trying to insult me? I do think twice about what I say and I didn't say anything wrong and I don't understand why you would say such a thing nor do I understand what Demi Lovato has anything at all whatsoever to do with anything I said.

^Adam Jacobs and Courtney Reed also don't look Arabic in the slightest. Should they have been prevented from playing Aladdin and Jasmine on Broadway? Also, I've heard people say Emma Watson is overrated in the beauty department and everyone finds her pretty, thus making her universally seen as beautiful, while others (like you) say she's pretty only to a small group of people. Which is it?

Also, you do think twice about what you say? People who think twice about what they say don't say other people are "too unattractive".

hatelarxene: Seeing as how the original tale made the princess Chinese and she was already changed to Arabian, I fail to see how that's a relevant or logical argument here. Not everyone finds Emma Watson pretty and she is far from being "universally seen as beautiful" so I don't know where you are getting that from.

What you said just isn't true at all so I'd advise you to follow your own advice. People who think twice about what they say don't have to share the same opinion as you. There is nothing wrong with saying that an actress is "too unattractive" to play the role of an "uncommonly very attractive" character. You should think twice before accusing others of not being as thoughtful just because they have a different opinion than you.

^How is it not relevant or logical when there are hundreds of people out there who also complain about Aladdin and Jasmine not looking "the right race" in the musical, as you do about Emma Watson not looking like Belle? Also, they were Arabic in the movie, so I fail to see how that wasn't a logical argument. Hell, they even went out of their way to include a song called "Arabian Nights" (which was kept in the Broadway play) in the movie to emphasize that the story took place in Arabia. We're not talking about the original fairytales here, and I don't know where I implied that we were. Also, I hate to mention other Fanpopper's usernames, but I would ask AudreyFreak about that second part in your first paragraph.

^ It's not the same because you can easily have someone play a different race or culture but unless you plan on putting Emma Watson's face in CGI the whole time, you can't make her go from plain and unattractive to very attractive. So basically you're saying you should follow your own advice even more since now you're stuck having to ask some 3rd person not involved in our conversation to get involved, because you couldn't just respect that I had put thought into what I said, simply because you disagreed with it?

I didn't really find her acting great in the snippets I saw of Harry Potter. So...no.

i would rather see the movie first before criticizing who played what and how good were they in it. Personally, i find Emma Watson very beautiful and think its a perfect choice for Belle. But beauty is always in the eyes of beholder and a very subjective quality to evaluate

I agree with anukriti2409. The fandom needs to calm down.

^ I find that a bit offensive. I am calm so I don't really need to be told to calm down like a child. I was simply trying to express my opinion here, which I have a right to, that I think Emma Watson is not attractive enough to play Belle (regardless of her acting skills). Others have the same right to disagree but it should be done respectfully. Personally I don't think hatelarxene needs to be told to calm down either as they are just expressing their opinion to me and not insulting or too heated or disrespectfully etc. I appreciate you trying to play peace maker but I think you should choose better wording next time.

@laylastepford I'm sorry I did not mean for that comment to be offensive. I was not directing that at you or hatelarxene (in fact I haven't actually read the conversation you guys are having), I was directing it at the fandom in general. It appears that you are both quite calm and are expressing your opinions eloquently. :) I meant that those who are going crazy about it, none of whom I have seen on Fanpop, need to calm down. I will edit my comment so it is more clear who I am talking about. Again, I'm sorry if it came off as offensive or directed at you. I certainly didn't mean for it to be!

^ Thank you for giving that explanation. I'm sorry I took it offensively without asking who you were directing it towards. I was afraid because if my conversation with hatelarxene is seen as "not calm" or over the top then I think that would promote an unhealthy environment where polite disagreements cannot occur which would then result in less social progress overall if simple disagreements without insults cannot be handled. :)

She is too boyish looking and also I think she only got the role because she is associated with nerdy, independent characters since Hermione so I'm sure this one will be another "girlpower" movie. I also find her a rather mediocre actress and I don't think that she would have a singing voice good enough for the role.

First, BATB was already a rather feminist movie. It encourages women to read and to not fall into a cookie cutter life, or abusive relationship just because that's the norm. The movie's main goal is to encourage women to think for themselves. So I'm not sure why we are judging the new movie if it has that kind of message.

Also the whole point of the original movie is to "not judge a book by it's cover". I think judging an actress' ability to perform a role based on her looks alone is rather disingenuous. Sure Belle is supposed to be very pretty, but that's a very small part of her overall character, and definitely not her defining trait. I'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that Emma Watson isn't at the very least pretty. She has near perfect bone structure, clear skin, and well proportioned eyes and lips. Even if you don't think she's a bomb shell, I don't think that has any relevance on her ability to be Belle, considering Belle's animation in the original movie wasn't that different from the other characters. In fact, objectively the bimbette's were much prettier, but Belle was so sought after not because she was so beautiful but because her mannerisms where so different. And her "other-worldliness" did add to her beauty, not in the physical way, but her beauty as an overall person.

So overall, I thinks it's wrong to reduce Belle's character to her beauty and to judge someone's ability to portray her on that characteristic alone. It's antithetical to the theme of the entire movie. And the movie will definitely be feminist, but I see that as a good thing, considering how feminist the original movie was. Feminism is not a bad thing you guys.

^ I completely agree, Aang_Lite. Feminism isn't a four-letter-word, and it unsettles me to see it being thrown around as such.

No, people are allowed to have different opinions. speaking of which, most people seem to be in favor of her despite her lack of acting range, so what's the problem? One or two people not agreeing is hardly something to get upset about.

and I agree, she's nothing in looks or personality like Belle. She acts totally different from her "modest bookworm class act" persona. Belle is a pretty genuine person, which was the whole point.

The Disney original was not feminist, it was a message of women's liberation which are 2 totally different things. Feminism is a bad thing sorry, but it's brought more harm than help. I agree with the points wanderingchild7 made and as I mentioned in my original comment, I'd rather see a version for women's liberation not supporting feminism and Emma Watson is a feminist. I also still think she doesn't compare physically to Belle enough to play her either. It's very offensive to say women shouldn't choose a "cookie cutter life" considering feminism is supposed to be pro-women's choice and this is an example of the exact harmful hypocrisy of feminism which is why I don't support it amongst many other reasons. It's also not the "norm" to be in abusive relationship, where are you talking about? I know it's not America or England or Norway or Sweden or Germany or France or Canada so where on earth are you talking about? The movie and story is called "Beauty and the Beast" so the attractiveness of Belle is just as relevant to the beast-liness of the Beast. I don't think you'd have as much of a problem if I was complaining that the beast doesn't look hideous or terrifying enough though it would be the same thing. Not judging a book by it's cover still applies to beautiful women, you know. They often get prejudged as "mean girls" or of "inferior intelligence" which is a part of the story as well and why the actress should be so commonly recognized as a superior beauty. The song says "her looks have got no parallel but behind that fair facade, I'm afraid she's rather odd". Emma Watson's looks are not that stunning at all. Again she is cast for her previous roles based on a superficial presentation of Belle that often overlooks the subtleties in her character like being spunky, adventurous/outdoorsy and romantic as well. I also never said Emma's looks affected her acting so I don't know why you're saying that, I said it affected the accuracy and credibility of the story. I also never said it was the sole factor, I said it was a main factor.

Women's liberation noun
- the liberation of women from inequalities and subservient status in relation to men, and from attitudes causing these (now generally replaced by the term feminism).

Feminism lies about picking up where women's liberation left off. It's a completely separate movement 45 years later by completely different people with completely different goals as stated by each group.

Please cite your sources.

Look it up yourself. You're on a computer. It's common knowledge. Feminism as you know it was started by a woman named Betty Friedan who wrote The Feminine Mystique in 1963. It was then propelled mainly by Gloria Steinem who said famous quotes against straight marriage. Women's liberation did not feel they did not need men like feminism, they wanted to work with men not against them.

Yes, but the major problem is that I don't speak conspiracy theorist. This is not even remotely common knowledge: this is anti-feminist propaganda. Cite your sources so we know you ain't a nutter.

Case and point, "feminism" was not started by Betty Friedan. How did you even come to that conclusion? YOU are on a computer too. Google the history of feminism, and while you're at it, Google the history of "women's liberation". You are way, way off here. Like, centuries off... yikes...

"Women's liberation did not feel they did not need men like feminism, they wanted to work with men not against them."
- You do not understand feminism or women's liberation. You are enveloped in anti-feminist, misogynist propaganda.

This has nothing to do with conspiracy theories whatsoever. It's not anti-feminist propaganda. It's the truth.

Women's liberation wanted to be equal to men whereas feminism wants to be the same as men. They are completely different.

The fact that you would call me a misogynist simply because I am not a feminist is more proof of how horrible and terribly fascist feminism is. As a feminist you do not respect my right as a woman to choose to not support your biased, sexist, manipulative, deceitful and hypocritical group so you call me a "misogynist" knowing full well that I do not fit that description. You are spewing classic feminist propaganda and only further showing me why I would never support such a hateful group.

I know much more about feminism and women's liberation than you do, clearly.

"Women's liberation wanted to be equal to men whereas feminism wants to be the same as men. They are completely different."
- Please explain this nonsense. Where are you getting these definitions from?

I did not call you a misogynist. Please read the words in my comment. Note how they are arranged.

I do not require you to label yourself a feminist. I require you to understand what feminism is before you take up an anti-feminist position. Thus far the definitions you have provided are incorrect and nonsensical. That is what I am judging you on. You are factually incorrect (again! lol!), and there is ample proof of that in the above comments, and all you can do about it is yell more factually incorrect nonsense about evil feminists. You don't know the history of feminism and you don't know what feminism even means. I feel very sorry for you. Not because you don't identify as a feminist, but because you don't even understand what you hate.

When the f*** did this become a debate about feminism?

When laylastepford vomited forth factual inaccuracies.

No, actually it became about feminism when they cast a feminist for the role. And misanthrope86, you haven't disproven a thing I've said. You just went to classic feminist tactics of name-calling. And yes, you name-called anti-feminists as misogynists.

Disney's latest princesses have been known to exploit feminist agendas so casting a feminist makes feminism in this film a very relevant conversation.

misanthrope86: I understand more about feminism than you do so stop telling me that I don't know about it just because I don't support it. Your feminist rhetoric doesn't work on me. I haven't provided any facts that are incorrect or nonsensical at all. The term "feminist" wasn't even used in society until Betty Friedan coined the term in her book. She is credited by feminists as the start of "second wave feminism" aka "feminism" because they lie about picking up where women's liberation left off and inaccurately associate that with their own movement even though they are clearly separate things as I said before. I clearly know more about feminism then you do so you can drop your prejudiced "you're only anti-feminist because you don't have the facts" argument. I understand feminism a lot more than you do which is why you have to go to petty insults like "you feel sorry for me" instead of providing any logic or proof that what I am saying is not factual. I know you feel sorry for me, you're a feminist and you're deluded to feel sorry for all women in a way that is just sexist, hypocritical and inaccurate. I don't make excuses for myself so I don't need your precious feminism.

Demonstrate that you do then, because you just recited a glaringly incorrect statement about Betty Friedan again. Seriously, just google it. You are still off by centuries. You still haven't cited your sources, and are riding me to provide "proof". You are the one making ridiculous claims about feminism's history and definition. I want to know why you are making them by seeing where you getting this stuff from. If you cannot provide such sources, I can only assume they do not exist.

Are you just going to keep yelling that you know more about feminism than I do? Because you are yet to demonstrate a basic understanding of a basic definition of feminism. Are you suggesting that you know more about feminism than thousands upon thousands of academics (feminist or otherwise) across hundreds of years who have worked to define and understand feminism?

I don't feel sorry for any woman here but you. I feel sorry for you because you are so proud of your ignorance.

Seriously, you google it. You are the one claiming the term "feminism" existed in literature pre-1963 so provide it. How can I provide what I am saying is not there? Be honest. I am not making any ridiculous claims at all. This just shows how little about feminisim that you know.

Feminism fought for the ERA which would make women the same as men. Feminism fought for women to be involuntarily drafted like men. Feminism fought for unisex bathrooms. Feminism fought for women to get opportunities based on gender instead of merit. Feminism fights to make women the same as men without respecting the genetic differences between us. Feminism also fights for women to get extra things that men don't get.

Women's liberation fought for women to have an equal vote to men. They never fought for women to be recognized as the same as men with different body parts. Women's liberation did not support the same issues that feminism supports. Women who supported women's liberation understood and respected that men and women could be equal without having to be exactly the same.

Are you just going to keep yelling that I don't understand feminism because I don't support it?

You are not thousands of feminists so what in the world are you talking about? More typical feminist tactics of purposefully going off topic and deflecting. Feminism hasn't been around for even 100 years let alone hundreds of years so you're just factually wrong.

You feel sorry for me but you should feel sorry for yourself for claiming to represent a group that stands for all women yet in typical feminist fashion you immediately attack the women who don't join your evil gang.

Just look at all of the ex-feminists who left feminism because of the sexism and hypocrisy that they couldn't stand for anymore.

Alright, alright. I'll play the game, since you won't. The term "feminism" was first used for sure in the 1890s (but possibly earlier), and the movement persisted from then onwards. I'll provide a link, knowing you won't look at it, just like you have ignored any other link I directed you to that contradicts what you believe: link.

"Women's liberation fought for women to have an equal vote to men. They never fought for women to be recognized as the same as men with different body parts. Women's liberation did not support the same issues that feminism supports. Women who supported women's liberation understood and respected that men and women could be equal without having to be exactly the same."
- Again, where are you getting this information? If you won't share your sources (and I mean the ones that you specifically are reading, not ones I could find myself (not that I can, big surprise there)), then this information is irrelevant. Show me where you get this information, or this is just ravings, no matter how bold you make it.

"Feminism fought for the ERA which would make women the same as men. Feminism fought for women to be involuntarily drafted like men. Feminism fought for unisex bathrooms. Feminism fought for women to get opportunities based on gender instead of merit. Feminism fights to make women the same as men without respecting the genetic differences between us. Feminism also fights for women to get extra things that men don't get."
Please cite all your sources for all these claims. These are all highly specific ideas, so you should be able to easily cite a source for each. Like I said, I need to know what you are talking about exactly, since you don't seem to know.

"Are you just going to keep yelling that I don't understand feminism because I don't support it?"
- I haven't even said that once. I will, however, keep repeating that you don't understand feminism because you have repeatedly demonstrated that you do not understand feminism.

"You are not thousands of feminists so what in the world are you talking about?"
- Yikes... reading comprehension is not your strong suit... Please re-read my comment to locate your error. And again, you can google 'history of feminism', or even use the link I provided as a starting point for some history of feminism.

I do not want you to be a feminist if that is a label you are uncomfortable with. And I will forever fight for your rights, as a woman, to enjoy the same rights as men do, even if you hate me for it. I just want to you understand feminism before you reject it. I feel like I may have said that before... You may continue to ignore this statement, since it contradicts your worldview. You're good at that.

Please provide the names of some of these ex-feminists. I would be interested in their stories. Because I like to learn.

Are you feminists always so negative and hateful? Do you always have to get so catty and petty? I guess this is what we get when we have feminism, loss of class. Your assumptions that I wouldn't read links provided for no reason are amusing. I'm not a feminist, evidence isn't kryptonite so stop doing what feminists do best which is projecting yourself onto others. You haven't directed any other links at me, as everyone here can see, so stop making things up. I know that's what you feminists are good at but it doesn't work with me. I'm a strong enough woman to not need a gang to make up excuses for me, thank you very much.

The link you provided shows a French version of the word in France. We are talking about America and even the link you provided talks about Betty Friedan's influence of bringing "feminism" starting in the 1960s not "women's liberation" which ended in 1920 in America. Again, as I said from the get-go, feminism lies about picking up where women's liberation left off and has nothing to do with it as it is a separate movement hence the reason even modern feminists call it a different "wave" because they are forced to acknowledge the truth that they are not the same.

I'm not going to play your game of giving you bones to chew on. You want sources so you can attack them because you know you how bad it makes you look to attack me as a "misogynist" like you originally went to. I've had conversations with you before where I provided a variety of links from numerous sources on an issue that is common knowledge yet you refused to believe them and similarly went from attacking me to attacking my sources because you don't like the way the truth makes you feel because it's inconvenient to your emotions or aspirations or fantasies etc. What I am saying can be found everywhere, it's the truth. It's common knowledge that American women fought for their only inequality, the right to vote and won. Then 45 years later, a disgruntled housewife wrote a book using the French term and coined it in America when she projected her own unhappiness onto all other housewives. They are not the same movements at all.

Are you that ignorant to the history of America that you don't know what the ERA entails? I'm not going to give you a history lesson. You're on a computer so you can find all of these incidents. Feminism is a lobbyist group in America. They manipulate women to get them to give them money to pursue their radical sexist causes that have nothing to do with women's liberation.

Just because you keep saying that I don't understand feminism doesn't make it so. Typical feminist tactic: Keep repeating yourself and shouting over and over. How very Saul Alinsky of you.

Of course I am uncomfortable with the label of feminist since I'm not a sexist. You do not fight for my rights, I'm fighting for yours to not be manipulated by a political power group like feminism which sexistly picks on you because studies tell them that you psychologically and emotionally need to feel like "part of the crowd" whereas men can easier be loners. I am the one fighting for women to know the truth and not be manipulated and exploited by their gender. I already have the same rights as men and I always have so you can drop the act and lies. I understand feminism completely and I wish you understood it before you blindly try to shove it down other people's throats. You're good at ignorantly insulting people when they speak truths you don't like as you have shown repeatedly to me now.

Tammy Bruce: ex-LA NOW chapter president
Deborah Watkins: ex-President of the Dallas Chapter of NOW left to start the Dallas-Fort Worth Chapter of the National Coalition for Men.
Dr. Warren Farrell: served on the board of NOW’s New York City chapter but was excommunicated from the women’s movement over his championship of men’s liberation. (Because feminism is against men.)
Erin Pizzey: opened 1st domestic abuse shelter for women but was harassed by feminists when she tried to open a domestic abuse shelter for men. They even shot her dog and got her to move out of the country. (Because feminism is against men.)
Lorraine V. Murray: doctorate in philosophy, with an emphasis on the feminist writings of Simone de Beauvoir

Here are some examples of women who refuse to call themselves feminist and why:
Melissa Leo: “I don’t think of myself as a feminist at all. As soon as we start labeling and categorizing ourselves and others, that’s going to shut down the world. I would never say that.”

Lady Gaga: “I’m not a feminist — I hail men, I love men. I celebrate American male culture and beer and bars and muscle cars.”

Gwyneth Paltrow: In a February 2012 interview with Harper’s Bazaar Paltrow reasoned that “compromise” and “being a wife” meant feminist activist Gloria Steinem wouldn’t approve:

“I gave advice to a girl friend who is an actress and in a new relationship with someone else with a big career, and I said this may not be feminist, but you have to compromise. It’s been all about you and you’re a big deal. And if you want what you’re saying you want — a family — you have to be a wife, and that is part of the equation. Gloria Steinem may string me up by my toes, but all I can do is my best, and I can do only what works for me and my family.”

Marissa Mayer: “I don’t think that I would consider myself a feminist. I think that I certainly believe in equal rights, I believe that women are just as capable, if not more so in a lot of different dimensions, but I don’t, I think have, sort of, the militant drive and the sort of, the chip on the shoulder that sometimes comes with that. And I think it’s too bad, but I do think that feminism has become in many ways a more negative word.”

Bjork: “Because I think it would isolate me. I think it’s important to do positive stuff. It’s more important to be asking than complaining.” She added: “You could probably call my mother a feminist, and I watched her isolate herself all her life from men, and therefore from society.”

Demi Moore: “I am a great supporter of women, but I have never really thought of myself as a feminist, probably more of a humanist because I feel like that’s really where we need to be.”

And that last one explains exactly where I am at. Feminist means you support women's rights. I am a humanist and egalitarian meaning I support both gender's rights not just one. Feminism is run by radical women who lie to the public about what kind of problems they are facing, what could be done to make things better and most importantly how they are spending our taxpayer dollars.

There are tons of American women who openly call themselves anti-feminist as well. Would you like a list of them as well? Or have you finally come to the conclusion that you should stop prejudging people to be ignorant about feminism just because they don't support it? If you were really willing to learn then you wouldn't be on such an attack mode and you would actually be open to the fact that I do know what I am talking about but I just don't agree with you. You feminists are good at claiming you care about freedom of choice yet very militant about which choice has to be chosen. I don't need a group to make my choices for me.

"Are you feminists always so negative and hateful? Do you always have to get so catty and petty?"
- Delicious, delicious irony.

"projecting yourself onto others"
- Oh so you DID look up projection! Well done! Incorrect usage, but at least you are taking steps towards educating yourself.

"You haven't directed any other links at me, as everyone here can see, so stop making things up"
- I am talking about in The Walking Dead spot, which I was giving you the courtesy of not directly bringing up here. Everyone is welcome to see laylastepford spew more factual inaccuracies, avoid supporting her claims with evidence and not listening to a word anyone says link.

Ok, so no comment on the history you are ignoring? That is researched and cited by multiple others? Thought not.

Oh good lord, the world doesn't begin and end with America. I never talked about America. You never talked about America. Why would anyone assume this was about America? Perhaps if you had cited your sources, as I asked, then I would know what kind of raving I was dealing with.

France is a country in the world. It has a history. Other European countries also exist and have histories. These histories are legitimate.

I never said Betty Friedan wasn't an influence to feminism. I said that she was not the originator of feminism, as YOU claimed she was.

And just to be clear, you are also denying the entire history of feminism? As recorded by feminists and non-feminists alike? You are denying world history, correct?

"Are you that ignorant to the history of America that you don't know what the ERA entails?"
- No, I am asking you to cite your sources. I want to know if YOU know what these issues you raved entail. As I have already said, I wish to know exactly what sources you are using for this information. If your sources are valid, then you should have no worries about sharing them.

"Just because you keep saying that I don't understand feminism doesn't make it so. Typical feminist tactic: Keep repeating yourself and shouting over and over."
- My god... you must be a feminist then! Welcome!

"I've had conversations with you before where I provided a variety of links from numerous sources on an issue that is common knowledge yet you refused to believe them and similarly went from attacking me to attacking my sources because you don't like the way the truth makes you feel because it's inconvenient to your emotions or aspirations or fantasies etc."
- You cited Wikipedia and other pop culture references. I critiqued the ACTUAL research and explained to you exactly why your sources were unreliable, according to the rigors of the scientific method that YOU claimed was infallible.

"Of course I am uncomfortable with the label of feminist since I'm not a sexist."
- Further demonstration of your lack of understanding of feminism. Congratulations on sticking to your very wrong, very ignorant guns.

"You do not fight for my rights..."
- Oh yes I do, and there is nothing you can do about it.

"...group like feminism which sexistly picks on you because studies tell them that you psychologically and emotionally need to feel like "part of the crowd" whereas men can easier be loners."
- What in sweet hell are you smoking?! Please link me to these studies (directly. Don't tell me to look for myself, because I have, and I cannot find them). This is absolute garbage.

"I already have the same rights as men and I always have so you can drop the act and lies."
- If you believe that, great. If it is genuinely true, then you are one of the lucky few, which would explain your gross attitude to those who do not enjoy those rights.

"You're good at ignorantly insulting people when they speak truths you don't like as you have shown repeatedly to me now."
- Mirror much?

Cool. Some of those people you mention in your first list have very interesting and complex stories. Not as simple as you stated, but I appreciate you are making baby steps here.

As for your second list, you have hilarious provided people who, just like you, misunderstand feminism. None of them has described feminism in their justifications. They have, as you have, instead spewed the anti-feminist propaganda. Thanks for playing.

"I support both gender's rights not just one."
- Cool. That's what feminism is. It is about women having the same rights as men, not having more rights, or taking rights away from men.

"Feminism is run by radical women who lie to the public about what kind of problems they are facing, what could be done to make things better and most importantly how they are spending our taxpayer dollars."
- More lies. Maybe if you had a source for this...

"Or have you finally come to the conclusion that you should stop prejudging people to be ignorant about feminism just because they don't support it?"
- Please actually read my comments fully. I have repeatedly said that I do not require you to label yourself a feminist. I am judging your understanding of feminism based on your willful ignorance of feminism. What do you not understand about that? Is it really too complex an idea?

"I don't need a group to make my choices for me."
- And yet you have. Oh dear.

^ Keep fighting the good fight, misanthrope86! *applause* That's awful about the Walking Dead board, by the way...

misanthrope86: I'm shocked! More personal attacks because I refuse to support your cult.

Great, so you sent a link while I was on vacation that I didn't get to. That's hardly "ignoring" a link but of course, in typical feminist fashion you massively exaggerate. What a way to put a spew on things. I didn't make any incorrect claims there. It's not my fault that you don't like the fact that majority of men on earth are not attracted to older women. Sorry but that's proven and common sense.

I already did comment on the history but you clearly didn't read that part. Since Disney is an American company and we are talking about American feminism here which are the group paying Disney to represent their beliefs, American feminism is the most relevant to this conversation. I did mention America but you must've just blocked that out. The feminism in other countries is not legitimate to bringing up American feminism influencing an American company. Stop trying to deflect and focus on the topic at hand please.

Betty Friedan is the originator of feminism in America, the feminism I started this discussion saying I wish would not be so involved in this film. I clearly stated the distinction between feminism and women's liberation as well as feminism in America. So why you are so confused is beyond me. Can you speak like a normal person and stop with the emotional drama? I never once said I "denied history" and no, I do not support your manipulation of feminism and women's liberation being the same thing when they clearly are not. You feminists always have to get so extreme and can't just have a decent conversation without starting petty tactics like the ones you are displaying. All of this because you cannot accept that I do not support feminism and refuse to pretend that it is some positive thing when it is completely destructive to society.

Why do I have to cite sources for what the ERA was? Do I also need to cite sources for where I read that women got the vote in America as well? Why do you need me to cite sources for the obvious? I already know what these issues entail, hence I named them. The source is history class and every history book and documentation of the ERA. Go look it up yourself and stop being lazy. Like a typical feminist, you expect others to do things for you.

Of course, another typical feminist tactic. You play the "I know you are but what am I" game. Suddenly now I'm the one repeating myself? Back to extremes. Just because I said you used a typical feminist tactic doesn't mean that everyone who uses that tactic is a feminist so your lame attempt at labeling me to be the same as you failed, even if I were repeating myself. I'm not a feminist, please stop playing childish games to try to call me one.

I cited Wikipedia and other news sources like PewResearch. There was nothing wrong with my sources, you just wanted to attack them because you had been attacking me first because I mentioned that it is statistically proven that most men do not like older women and those relationships don't last. Again, you couldn't handle my opinion even though it was factually true so you went on an attacking rant just like you are here.

Feminism is sexism. Everything they do is for women only. Congratulations on trying to manipulate linguistics. FEM=Female. Feminism focuses only on women's rights and not men. I am not ignorant and it's really pathetic that you have to keep insulting me because I don't support your cult. Feminism is incredibly sexist. They ask for more opportunities for women without equal responsibility and they want everything to be on a curve for women. It is incredibly sexist and that is completely factual and not ignorant in the slightest.

You don't fight for my rights, you're just some chick who gives her opinion online. Good for you. You don't fight for my rights because my rights aren't in jeopardy. How conceited and arrogant of you to claim to know what I want when you have no idea. You're not fighting for my rights at all and you're delusional to think I need you to fight for my rights. Seriously, get over yourself. Why don't you actually fight for women's rights who actually need it like women in Africa or India instead of focusing on women who are already privileged? All I need you to do is to stop attacking my rights as a feminist.

I'm not smoking anything. What an original line. It's common sense. Women like to be a part of a community and are far less comfortable with being loners isolated from society than men. Feminism exploits that difference in the genders and focus on women for that reason. I am sorry you don't see that but I'm fighting for you to see the light and open your eyes to the manipulation someday!

I don't have to believe anything. I know I already have the same rights as men and I always have so you can drop the act and lies. I am one of the lucky few, just as all of the other women who live in America. How do I have a gross attitude to those who do not enjoy those rights? Really? Well you're completely making that up from the fantasies of your own mind since women from countries that actually need women's liberation don't feel insulted by my views of American feminism at all, they mostly agree with me. There is a reason why countries that have feminism also need men's rights groups since those feminists attack men's rights. They are a hateful and extreme group, the proof is all around you in their actions.

I don't appreciate your parrot-like qualities.

Baby steps? Do you get off on insulting people? Oh wait, of course you do since you're a feminist. You have yet to show any class in this entire conversation, constantly making passive aggressive and completely condescending statements, more proof of your hypocrisy since you were the one who first accused me of being condescending.

All of the people I mentioned say the same things I do and it's really petty of you to try to belittle me and my opinions simply because you do not agree. Not as simple as I stated? Please get off of your high horse and talk like you have some sort of human decency and respect. For someone who thinks they are so right, you sure do go to a lot of wrong tactics. Excuse me for not writing their whole life stories here. You're so ridiculous and dramatic, it's really indicative of your feminist beliefs that you just keep trying to attack me instead of respecting me as a person and attacking what I say. I hope one day you'll learn about common courtesy and respect.

It's not a hilarious list. More feminist rhetoric trying to attack anyone who doesn't understand feminism. More typical feminist prejudice that "they must misunderstand feminism if they don't support it." The people I mentioned do not misunderstand feminism at all, they understand it perfectly well and just choose not to fall for the lies and manipulation. All you've been doing is spewing typical feminist propaganda so it's amusing that you think you're somehow a better person.

"Thanks for playing."? Really? Thanks for further proving how hypocritical feminists like you are. What classic symbolism. You complained I was being condescending yet you then make a condescending statement every chance you get. Thank you for being completely indicative of what is wrong with feminism and making my case for me by being an example of the hypocrisy and prejudice that comes with your gang.

"I support both gender's rights not just one." That's not what feminism is at all. Even in your definition so can you comprehend English? Even as you said, read carefully: "It is about women having the same rights as men, not having more rights, or taking rights away from men." As I said, it is about women not about both and the rest of that definition is all a lie. I know you're a feminist so you don't think this way but most people judge based on actions not words. So you can say all the positive words you want about feminism but that doesn't make it so. The actions of feminism rip women away from young children under false pretenses, isolates fathers from their children for no fault of their own and is constantly trying to gain rights for women that men don't have and take away rights from men. The proof is in their actions and where they spend their money.

Feminism is run by radical women who lie to the public about what kind of problems they are facing, what could be done to make things better and most importantly how they are spending our taxpayer dollars. These are not lies. Do you know what feminism spends their money on?

Wow, you are just awful. If you were thinking logically instead of emotionally then you'd know that I clearly am not willfully ignorant of feminism at all but actually well-read on the subject. I'll even help you out, if you said I was misunderstood or misguided about feminism you'd at least be a decent person. What do you not understand about the fact that I know very much about feminism and still do not support it because it's based on sexism, hypocrisy and lies? Is that too complex for you? It's really very simple: I understand feminism completely and still completely disapprove because it's actions do much harm to society and little to no help.

"I don't need a group to make my choices for me." "And yet you have. Oh dear."
How incredibly delusional are you? Have what? That doesn't even make sense in the English language. Seriously. Stop focusing on how to insult me and focus on what I've actually said.

Uh, you also ignored everything I said in the comment preceding the heavily linked comment (in the Walking Dead discussion), so your inability to respond to anything beyond your own nonsense predates your holiday.

Your comment on the history was to dismiss world history as conspiracy. I tried to clarify if that was genuinely your response.

"I didn't make any incorrect claims there. It's not my fault that you don't like the fact that majority of men on earth are not attracted to older women. Sorry but that's proven and common sense."
- So your Wikipedia and pop culture links with butchered snippets of some studies are more accurate than the multitude of studies I directly linked you to...? Can you explain to me how?

"we are talking about American feminism here"
"I did mention America but you must've just blocked that out. The feminism in other countries is not legitimate to bringing up American feminism influencing an American company."
- Please direct me to which comment you say this is about American feminism. I read through your comments and did a search. No results. You decided we were talking about American feminism when I sent you evidence from somewhere other than America. This may surprise you, but the rest of the world can discuss feminism AND watch Disney movies. You are on a global website, interacting with a global set of users. If you can only discuss America, perhaps you need to find an America-only website to promote your hatred.

"Why do I have to cite sources for what the ERA was?"
- I implore you to read what I say if you are going to respond to it. I asked you to cite your sources for your interpretation of the feminist involvement in the ERA.

"I already know what these issues entail, hence I named them. The source is history class and every history book and documentation of the ERA. Go look it up yourself and stop being lazy."
- Cool, so if you know what they entail, link me to something, cite something. If you have confidence in your knowledge, this should be a simple request for you. And calling me lazy when I had to search for the legitimate research in your illegitimate Wikipedia etc links is very, very hypocritical.

"I'm not a feminist, please stop playing childish games to try to call me one."
- Sense of humour not detected. Abort! Abort!

"I cited Wikipedia and other news sources like PewResearch. There was nothing wrong with my sources, you just wanted to attack them because you had been attacking me first because I mentioned that it is statistically proven that most men do not like older women and those relationships don't last. Again, you couldn't handle my opinion even though it was factually true so you went on an attacking rant just like you are here."
- Wikipedia is NOT an accepted source. ANYONE can edit it. YOU WOULD FAIL a university paper if you cited Wikipedia. It is not, in any universe or circumstance an acceptable source when someone asks you for the statistical evidence you claim to know. High school students can't use Wikipedia as a source. Same with your other sources. You took the pop-culture sound bites as "facts". I attacked the integrity of that, and I attacked the integrity of the original sources, which, surprise, surprise, were shoddy. You are factually incorrect in The Walking Dead spot, and you are factually incorrect here.

"Feminism focuses only on women's rights and not men."
- Factually incorrect again. I picked one psychology journal, Feminism and Psychology, and searched "masculinity" and "men" and got heaps of results that discuss how masculinity can be problematic, and positive, for men. Pick another feminist journal and search it. You are factually incorrect.

"You don't fight for my rights"
- Oh yes I do!!

"How conceited and arrogant of you to claim to know what I want when you have no idea."
- I didn't do that...?! Please read comments carefully and ensure you understand them.

"Why don't you actually fight for women's rights who actually need it like women in Africa or India instead of focusing on women who are already privileged?"
- I do. I am a global citizen (unlike you, apparently) and I fight for women's rights globally. Africa in particular has a rich heritage of feminism that you deny because you think feminist history is nonsense. Me, poking you in the eye now, is about fighting for women and feminism, globally, so that it isn't corrupted by the filth you spewing forth here.

"All I need you to do is to stop attacking my rights as a feminist."
- I'm not attacking your rights. I am attacking your ignorance. It's just there... there's so much of it...

"What an original line."
- An oldie, but a goodie, eh? Nothing you have said here is original either. It is tired old propaganda.

"It's common sense. Women like to be a part of a community and are far less comfortable with being loners isolated from society than men."
- Just as I thought: no source. Because it is nonsense. Thanks for clearing that up.

"I am one of the lucky few, just as all of the other women who live in America."
- lol imma just leave this one here because I'm sure that'll give a few people here some lols

"Well you're completely making that up from the fantasies of your own mind since women from countries that actually need women's liberation don't feel insulted by my views of American feminism at all, they mostly agree with me."
- Which countries? And how do you know they agree with you? Did your own study? I think you are the fantasist here.

"There is a reason why countries that have feminism also need men's rights groups since those feminists attack men's rights. They are a hateful and extreme group, the proof is all around you in their actions."
- More factually incorrect garbage. Please search "men's rights" in an academic journal. Or don't and stay ignorant. Your choice.

"I don't appreciate your parrot-like qualities."
- link

"You have yet to show any class in this entire conversation, constantly making passive aggressive and completely condescending statements, more proof of your hypocrisy since you were the one who first accused me of being condescending."
- I provided evidence when asked, despite not needing to. You have continued to refuse and continue to regurgitate factually incorrect crap. I'm happy with the way I have conducted myself here. If I didn't treat this with a sense of humour, it would mean I took you seriously as a human being. If you recall, I suggested that you get treated the way you treat others. Our first few interactions were pleasant. Then you behaved disgustingly. So I called you on it. Like I said, I'm ok with it.

"All of the people I mentioned say the same things I do and it's really petty of you to try to belittle me and my opinions simply because you do not agree."
- I dismiss those comments as ignorant because they express a misunderstanding of feminism. You are unwilling to understand that.

"Please get off of your high horse and talk like you have some sort of human decency and respect."
- Sure. When you do.

"For someone who thinks they are so right, you sure do go to a lot of wrong tactics."
- HA HA HA HA HA! Oh my god, I can't even believe you actually said that. This just gets better and better. Insightless. Utterly insightless.

"More feminist rhetoric trying to attack anyone who doesn't understand feminism."
- YES! SWEET JESUS WE'VE DONE IT FOLKS!!!! Yes, I am trying to get you to understand that people should not reject feminism if they do not understand it. Pretty sure you screwed that up, but it was fun while it lasted.

"More typical feminist prejudice that "they must misunderstand feminism if they don't support it."
- OH NO YOU LOST IT AGAIN! Damn! Please, for the love of all thinks holy, at least get this right: I believe that you should understand feminism before you reject it. The comments you provided (yours and others) misunderstand feminism. THAT is the issue. NOT that they do not take up an explicitly feminist position. This is a simple idea.

"What classic symbolism."
- Woops. Didn't mean for it to overshadow your raging phallus.

"You complained I was being condescending yet you then make a condescending statement every chance you get."
- Yep. Karma. It'll stop when yours stops.

"It is about women having the same rights as men, not having more rights, or taking rights away from men."
- Please read this sentence and comprehend it. Seriously... It is about women having the same rights as men, not having more rights or taking rights away from men. Same rights.

"most people judge based on actions not words."
- I 100% judge people by their actions. Your actions are to sit at a computer and spew bile into the world.

"So you can say all the positive words you want about feminism but that doesn't make it so."
- And you can say all the factually inaccurate anti-feminist propaganda you want, it doesn't make it so.

"The actions of feminism rip women away from young children under false pretenses, isolates fathers from their children for no fault of their own and is constantly trying to gain rights for women that men don't have and take away rights from men. The proof is in their actions and where they spend their money."
- I'd ask for your sources, but I know that story ends with you ranting about how you don't sources etc etc. So I'll just flag this as factually incorrect nonsense yet again.

"Feminism is run by radical women who lie to the public about what kind of problems they are facing, what could be done to make things better and most importantly how they are spending our taxpayer dollars. These are not lies."
- These are lies. Big, fat, sloppy ones. Unless you can support these claims with legitimate sources..? Ha ha ha.

"Do you know what feminism spends their money on?"
- Ooo, ooo, I know this! Is it... um... shoes and home castration kits?!

"actually well-read on the subject."
- You are well-read on no subject I have ever discussed with you. Wikipedia doesn't count as reading.

"if you said I was misunderstood or misguided about feminism you'd at least be a decent person."
- Actually tried that. I have done a lot of work to direct you to some legitimate sources. You interpreted anything I said in The Walking Dead spot as being an attack on you because I exposed your "facts" as crap. You were really horrible to a lovely person in the Walking Dead who was simply defending her own position. And you treated her like crap. And now I see you treating people here like crap too. You have had plenty of opportunities to accept that you have been, at the very least, abrasive. I am, and will always be, more than willing to help people learn about feminism, if they are willing to listen. You have demonstrated repeatedly that you do not fully read and/or comprehend people's comments, particularly if they clash with your narrow worldview. Again, you are welcome to your beliefs, and you are entitled to not label yourself a feminist. But you do not understand feminism. That is factual. You have demonstrated that repeatedly. Your actions here have demonstrated that repeatedly. If you want to have a civilized conversation with me about feminism, please do. I would love to. You have not walked through those doors so far. Instead you got defensive and ranted and raved.

"What do you not understand about the fact that I know very much about feminism and still do not support it because it's based on sexism, hypocrisy and lies?"
- Accept that you don't understand what feminism is. Your definition of feminism is factually incorrect. You are welcome to your faulty logic, but lets not pretend that it ain't faulty, eh?

""I don't need a group to make my choices for me." "And yet you have. Oh dear."
How incredibly delusional are you? Have what? That doesn't even make sense in the English language."
- Yeah... you need to re-read again. It makes sense, if you read it and comprehend it.

"focus on what I've actually said."
- That's the scary part. I am focusing exactly on what you are saying, and it is factually incorrect, yet said with such authority.

I want to give @misanthrope86 a hug! Preach girl!

I'm neutral about Emma Watson in the Live-Action Beauty and the Beast movie because I don't really care about the original. I find Belle exceptionally annoying and the movie forgettable except for Gaston. But that's just my opinion.

Oh I'm sorry, is that off topic? It seems like we are actually talking about Feminism and misconceptions of what feminism is.

I'll give you all hint, Misanthrope86 is right and laylastepford is wrong.

How the hell did a conversation about Emma Watson playing Belle come into a conversation about feminism?

^ Originally, because Emma Watson is a known feminist and the last few Disney princess films have been known to have feminist agendas and overly feminist in the opinions of many. Why this conversation spiraled into what it became is because the misanthropic user who hates other people can't handle that like many other americans who have had their eyes opened to the horrors of feminism, I don't support it because it has done more harm to societies than good. She couldn't handle that and had to spend all night insulting, degrading and berating, which is what feminists do. More proof of how wrong they are, they completely lack class and politeness and decency towards all people.

If you actually read through all the comments, you will see that laylastepford is continuing to lie about absolutely everything. link.

laylastepford what has Emma Watson actually said that you find so horrible?

^What Aang_Lite said.

Also, misanthrope86, I would like to know how you personally feel about Emma Watson playing Belle.

I'm certainly interested to see how the live version plays out. I haven't seen Emma Watson in anything, so can't pass judgement on her acting skills, but the rest of the cast seems pretty strong to me, so I feel like they know what they are doing in casting her. I do think she looks a lot like the Disney version of Belle, so I think it'll be interesting to see how the movie comes together.

^You should watch the Harry Potter movies, The Perks of Being a Wallflower , and Noah to see her acting skills in action (even though Noah is a mediocre movie). She is an incredible actress.

@AudreyFreak: "Lack of acting range", indeed. As Ursula would say, "Bah!"

@Hatelarxene: Some people can appreciate Emma Watson playing whatever "role." But I find her acting "frosty/withdrawn" on screen. Emma is kind of a stiff ( though I guess that totally fits with the animated characterization of Belle, who also comes across as "a stuck-up girl"... B & the B is not one of my favorite movies for this reason, alone). And I agree with AudreyFreak. Not everyone has to love Emma solely for her facial features ( plain pretty) OR her acting chops ( she's not very good in my opinion). We are free to dislike her. It's a free choice, after all.

^To each their own. As you've said before, we should stop listening to negative criticism and just enjoy what we want to enjoy.

^Ya got it! Well... that's my takeaway message. ;)

misanthrope86 & those of you who actually do care about hearing all sides, learning and progressing through truth and reason then I encourage you to watch this video of a feminist who says the same things that I do about how feminism has gone extreme and takes things too far. The difference between her and I, is that she wants to save "feminism" whereas I'd much rather just drop that word for one that actually linguistically supports both genders like "humanism" or "egalitarianism". This woman grew up in feminism and took part of the early movement yet she says similar things as I do. By the way, she calls herself "The FACTUAL Feminist", notice the distinction. So just how wrong am I? If you really care then you'll watch this:
link (You will see how feminists react to her as well though she clearly just wants to support both genders as I do, only she's actually willing to keep the feminist label whereas I am not. That's not any kind of logic or reason that I must "not really know the truth about feminism". To each their own. If you still choose to call yourself a feminist, then that is your choice but to pretend that feminism is and has always been some purely rainbow and golden thing, is just pure delusional.

Feminism is constantly trying to infringe on my 1st amendment rights. I do not support a group that is factually trying to take away my civil rights and I fail to see what is wrong about that.

Feminism is a choice. So if a person wants to call themselves a feminist and supporter of freedom of choice then they should respect when other people choose not to support feminism without having to insult their intelligent, experience, knowledge or character.

link Women who have experienced the most feminism are not as happy as they were before the demands and changes brought on by feminism. I have said it many times and I will say it again, I support women's liberation but not feminism. In Linguistics, the creation of a word in English is a creation of that word for all English-speaking cutlures. Betty Friedan took inspiration from the French word "feminisme" when she created the word "feminism" in English, in her book The Feminine Mystique which also spawned the Feminist movement as known as "feminist" in America and the Western world which did go beyond "women's liberation" to be the same as men not equal to men.

I live in LA, a very open-minded place and one of the most multi-ethnically diverse cities in the Western world. I was raised by a feminist who taught me to think, act and speak like a feminist and she was raised by a feminist who taught her to think, act and speak like a feminist. Because of the ideologies and repercussions of feminism, I was able to be abused by multiple women growing up who got away with it simply because they were women. That may be a shocker for some but like a pendulum, feminism has swung to an extreme which has resulted in various harmful effects on families and children in particular. I would know since both me and my mother were negatively affected by feminism in our lives. So to those of you who are sick and tired of hearing about feminism on this post, I apologize but it is something I feel very deeply and personally about since the victims of feminism are often so attacked, harassed, silenced and degraded for trying to give their honest and genuine opinions.

If you still think I am wrong for believing what I do then that is fine but at least you will hopefully see where I am coming from and respect that my opinion doesn't have to be ignorant or misogynist or whatever labels just because it is not common or convenient.

Like everyone else here, I was simply trying to share my opinions and concerns about the film. That's what the comment section is for, for me to let others know why I am viewed as a "Negative Nancy". I gave my reasons and I never asked anyone to agree with them.

Aaaah the "Factual Feminist"... Still practicing feminism the same way as many do. Still getting it very wrong, as many do as well.

Trigger warnings are somewhat of a sub-specialty for me, so I do agree that there is not enough research, particularly with the modern incarnation of the term. BUT trigger warnings have a long history in a particular sub-culture online where the trigger warnings are actually vital for keeping people safe. Yes, we need more research instead of just throwing a term like that around, but the "Factual Feminist" has missed an important chunk of the story here. Definitely need more research though in these multiple other contexts.

It does seem odd to me though, that this person says that there is not enough research on the topic, and then goes on to make claims about how trigger warnings make women seem weak. Seems to me, trigger warnings only make women seem weak if you frame it that way. Why can't trigger warnings make women empowered, taking control over that which may have a negative effect on them, or someone else? I think this video opens space for thinking about how women talk about each other more than anything else.

lol the "Factual Feminist" also equates feminism with women's liberation.

"Feminism is constantly trying to infringe on my 1st amendment rights."
- Feminism wants you to be aware of the consequences of your actions and your words. Pointing out your ignorance is not a violation of your civil rights.

"Feminism is a choice. So if a person wants to call themselves a feminist and supporter of freedom of choice then they should respect when other people choose not to support feminism without having to insult their intelligent, experience, knowledge or character."
- I am glad you have finally chosen to accept this!

"Women who have experienced the most feminism are not as happy as they were before the demands and changes brought on by feminism."
- Cite your sources please. This is an extreme claim, and holds no merit at all if you don't cite your sources.

"I support women's liberation but not feminism."
- Cool. The terms are interchangable, but if you are more comfortable with the liberation label, have at it.

"Betty Friedan took inspiration from the French word "feminisme" when she created the word "feminism" in English, in her book The Feminine Mystique which also spawned the Feminist movement as known as "feminist" in America and the Western world which did go beyond "women's liberation" to be the same as men not equal to men."
- Still as factually incorrect and ill-informed as the first million times you have tried to say this. But nice to see that you have at least acknowledged that there is a history beyond American history.

"Feminism has failed, in my opinion."
- Thank the good lord you have finally stated that this is your opinion, however ill-informed. Anyway, I invite you to think really, really hard about what is going on in that video. It's comments section gives you a really big clue. There are constructions going on here that are doing this damage, and it ain't feminism that is doing that.

"Because of the ideologies and repercussions of feminism, I was able to be abused by multiple women growing up who got away with it simply because they were women."
- I am deeply sorry that you have been hurt. No one should endure any form of abuse. You are well within your rights to angry with anyone who hurt you, but keep in mind that those people hurt you, not feminism. They may have identified as feminists, but the individuals hurt you. Taking out your pain on people here is not a solution to your pain.

"That may be a shocker for some but like a pendulum, feminism has swung to an extreme which has resulted in various harmful effects on families and children in particular."
- You need to cite your sources. What are these various harmful effects you claim and what studies support these claims?

"since the victims of feminism are often so attacked, harassed, silenced and degraded for trying to give their honest and genuine opinions."
- As are the victims of misogyny and anti-feminism. You have continually tried to silence me by telling me to stop talking. I have continually asked you to fully explain your claims with evidence. I have asked you repeatedly to say more about these claims you are making. That is not silencing.

"I gave my reasons and I never asked anyone to agree with them."
- No, but if you give your reasons you should not be surprised when someone questions them. And when you make extreme claims, you cannot be surprised, or annoyed, when someone asks you to justify them.

@laylastepford So from what I understand, it really just boils down to a semantics misunderstanding. You believe in the term Women's Liberation and the progress for women's rights that term entails correct? And you dislike the term Feminism because of the way it's been presented in society and the implications it now has. For you Feminism = bra burning and man-hating and the general de-feminization of women. As a whole feminism now only means radicalization. Am I correct in saying this?

Supposing that I am, I hope you realize will come to realize that the two terms are synonymous. Women's Liberation is a bit less common of a term and as a result it has less of the social stigma, showing why you may be more inclined to use it. But overall in both the historical and research fields Women's Liberation and Feminism are used interchangeably. You can look at the Stanford Encyclopedia for conformation. link

The fact that you support the term Women's Liberation and the strides it has made from the 1960s & onwards in helping women gain a place in the workforce and promoting the general equality of women and men, shows that you agree with the idea of feminism itself, since those are the values third-wave feminism embodies. Again, link

On the other hand, you don't agree with radical feminism. The idea that as you put it, women are the "same as men" and that women are superior to men and should have their governmental rights reflect that. Exactly how similar we men and women are can be debated at a later time, but I hope everyone on this poll can agree that women are not superior. And yet many radical feminists promote that idea, so it is understandable why you are so reluctant to use the term feminism. Especially when rather horrible people in your life have used the term to justify their own cruelty.

But I hope you will come to realize that in the academic, and generally the political spheres, the term feminism is used to embody the same values you give to Women's liberation, egalitarianism, humanitarianism, etc. Radical feminism as you have been exposed to is not something that is argued in any of these spheres and it is generally relegated to blog posts, tumblr and small societal movements. To bring it back to the original subject of the poll, here are two quote's Emma Watson said at her UN speech in 2014:

"I was appointed six months ago and the more I have spoken about feminism the more I have realized that fighting for women’s rights has too often become synonymous with man-hating. If there is one thing I know for certain, it is that this has to stop.
For the record, feminism by definition is: “The belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. It is the theory of the political, economic and social equality of the sexes.”"

"I’ve seen young men suffering from mental illness unable to ask for help for fear it would make them look less “macho”—in fact in the UK suicide is the biggest killer of men between 20-49 years of age; eclipsing road accidents, cancer and coronary heart disease. I’ve seen men made fragile and insecure by a distorted sense of what constitutes male success. Men don’t have the benefits of equality either.
We don’t often talk about men being imprisoned by gender stereotypes but I can see that that they are and that when they are free, things will change for women as a natural consequence."

This is what true Feminists are fighting for today, and even if you still disagree with the term feminist at this point, I hope you at least agree with the general message here. As you can see feminism is about the equality of all people, both men and women alike. Just because radicals have hijacked a term for their own self interests, it does not change the meaning of the term itself. That's the same as saying all muslims support the actions and rhetoric of ISIS. And disregarding all Feminists just because that is the label they prefer to give themselves as based on the historical and academic meaning of the term itself, is very misguided in my belief.

Finally as far as the link you provided for why "Feminism has failed, in my opinion. " the video makes some very reaching conclusions about the causes of women's decline in happiness that is not supported by the actual paper itself. The paper can be found here and I suggest you look it over: link

The study was an analysis of happiness in the US and other countries, and no analysis was done to say what caused these numbers. Any explanation in the discussion section was speculation at most, and had no evidence in any studies to support it. Something the study readily admitted. If you look at the charts and data at the end of the paper you will find that overall women and men's happiness has remained rather proportional over the years, and that any major downward or upward trends have been shared between the genders.

In addition, Figure 1 is especially helpful in illustrating that while the overall satisfaction of women to men has declined from 1970 to 2010, on a year by year basis, the happiness of women compared to men has varied widely. In fact if we look at women to men in 2005 it seems as though women are incredibly more happier than men with a happiness index of 0.15, a very large number for this study.

Thus, while women are not as happy as men overall and their general happiness has declined over the years, nothing is said as to why this is occurring and to chock it up to a problem with feminism and with no evidence at that, is very misguided. Especially since no such thing is even suggested by the authors of the paper, and is outright dismissed:

Rather than immediately inferring that the women’s movement failed to improve the lot of women, we conclude with a simple taxonomy for organizing alternative explanations of this paradox.

misanthrope86: I think you're a really nasty person who jumps at the chance to attack others every chance you get. You are really truly insulting. It's not a miss at all to me that someone like you, who not only chooses to call themselves a feminist but attack others just like feminists are known for doing, would have a screenname that tells other people that you hate them. I suppose at least you are honest in that one instance.

Statements and attacks like yours are exact examples of why I would never call myself a feminist, because I would never want to be associated with people like you. I truly do believe attitudes like yours are incredibly harmful to women and society.

The "Factual Feminist" equates feminism with women's liberation because she was involved during the start of the feminist movement, believed their propaganda and doesn't want to give up on the failed movement. I already stated that I do not share this view. I already stated feminism lies about picking up where women's liberation left off and being a new version of it. The feminists who are actually in charge, the lobbyist political action groups are full of the women that the majority of Americans, Canadians and other Europeans refer to as "feminazis", the militant feminists who attack anyone who disagrees with feminist views and also goes as far as to insult the character of the person sharing those views. Why? Because these feminists say they want to be the same as men yet cannot admit their own female weaknesses the same as males admit theirs. I am well aware of the consequences of my actions and my words. No one said pointing out my ignorance is a violation of civil rights nor was I being ignorant. You are always on attack mode and always so angry. Why? Because your life is so much better and happier with feminism in it? Yes, it seems to have made you so much more open-minded and polite, as everyone can see. You are a shining example of feminism and its treatment of those who do not agree.

I never once said feminism wasn't a choice. Must you always pull the childish "I know you are but what am I" tactic?

I don't have to cite my sources, it's linked. Do your eyes work because the link is clearly a different color. Another example of how you just want to attack me. Thank you so everyone can read your reactions to me. You're mighty angry and insulting towards someone you claim to be "fighting" for. Why would any woman like me want to support a group whose participants treat me the way you do? You are not convincing at all that feminism breeds anything good especially by your attitude and treatment of another woman and her choice.

Women's liberation and feminism are not interchangeable. Thank you for again showing everyone else how you will just continue to choose to insult me and belittle everything I say and my opinion. Thank you for showing everyone how feminist representatives treat people like me who don't want to support it. Thank you for again showing everyone else how feminist representatives try to force feminism down others' throats who are clearly trying to reject it. Thank you for showing everyone how you refuse to respect my opinion or me as a person and continue to try to force me to support feminism with your word game play.

There is nothing factually incorrect about what I said about Betty Friedan and feminism. Thank you for again showing everyone how nasty you are by your insulting me about "acknowledging history beyond American history". I never said there wasn't history beyond American history, I clearly said 1) Disney is an American company dealing with 2) American feminist lobbyists and 3) the affect of American feminism on American society. But again, thank you for showing off how you cannot resist an opportunity to insult me. That is just more proof that feminism breeds hateful behavior and attitudes like yours as opposed to open-minded, understanding and balanced behavior and attitudes that we should be striving for as a society.

I stated my opinion where it was my opinion. I stated fact where it was fact. You have every right to believe that feminism isn't the cause of so many problems in America but you live in New Zealand so you should really stop insulting me by acting like you know more about how American feminism has affected the society and culture that I live and you do not. I wish you would realize how disrespectful you are being.

Please do not to pretend to be sorry for me when you treat me just like my abusers and the people who excused them. You have done nothing but continue to try and degrade and belittle me so pretending to care about me is really just adding insult to injury. I doubt anyone here actually believes that you truly care about my experiences with feminism growing up as you continue to insult me every chance you get despite the fact that I don't insult you. It is really ridiculous for you to try to tell me who or what is at fault for my abuse. You are the same type of person who would say the patriarchy is to blame for domestic abuse so please save the hypocrisy. Feminism did hurt me and you have no logic or proof to say otherwise, it's actually just incredibly insulting. Thank you for showing us all how feminism treats victims of abuse, they blindly and ignorantly undermine it with literally 0 facts as you know nothing about my situation or how feminism was involved. Your prejudice view of feminism being a solely positive thing keeps you insulting me... I fail to see where you feel so righteous about feminism. I have not taken out any of my pain on people here so that's really an unnecessary comment and again just another chance for you to try and patronize me because you just cannot stand that feminism has failed me and many of my fellow citizens.

I have never once tried to silence you in anyway and I'd love to see proof of your ludicrous and outrageous claims. You play games. You only ask for sources to attack them because that is what you like to do, attack, as you have shown everyone here.

I never was surprised for someone questioning them but it's amusing that you pretend that's what you were doing when proclaiming I *must* be ignorant simply because you don't want to believe it. I am not making any "extreme claims" but I hope everyone else notices your continuous exaggerated word play. I also never was "surprised or annoyed" if someone would have asked me to justify them. I get insulted when someone like you continues to attack me and belittle me and pretend like you speak for me at the same time.

Just like a business changes it's name when it starts selling different products, so feminism had to change it's name from women's liberation as they were selling a different product.

"The feminist message for women is inextricably linked to the individualist message." - Generation Me: Why Today's Young Americans Are More Confident, Assertive, Entitled--and More Miserable Than Ever Before by Jean M. Twenge Ph.D. (link)

"Women's magazines, a nearly $7 billion-a-year business, are based on telling women their lives are too rough for them to handle and they should feel very sorry for themselves. This distorted vision of your life is absolutely crazy." - Spin Sisters: How the Women of the Media Sell Unhappiness --- and Liberalism --- to the Women of America by Myrna Blyth, former editor-in-chief of Ladies' Home Journal (link)

They "sit on review panels to give federal grants to each other to study things only they care about. Every new law they design comes with hundreds of millions of dollars in feminist pork spending." - Women Who Make the World Worse : and How Their Radical Feminist Assault Is Ruining Our Schools, Families, Military, and Sports by Kate O'Beirne (link)

"It’s women who live with men that hate men. Lesbians could kind of take it or leave it alone, you know. And we had great slogans, like sink into his arms and you may end up with your arms in his sink. Like we’re becoming the men we wanted to marry." - Gloria Steinem (link)

"Women are split between a majority who are traditionally feminine and others who are more like men." - Taking Sex Differences Seriously by Steven E. Rhoads (link)

"And while part of the power of feminism is its intellectual diversity, certain things are inarguable. Feminism is a social justice movement with values and goals that benefit women. It's a structural analysis of a world that oppresses women, an ideology based on the notion that patriarchy exists and that it needs to end." - Opinion: The fake feminism of Sarah Palin By Jessica Valenti (link)

"Feminism found common cause with Communist ideology. Breaking up the family was not incidental but central to that ideology." - Save the Males: Why Men Matter Why Women Should Care by Pulitzer Prize–winning writer Kathleen Parker (link)

"Many of the welcome changes in women's prospects feminists take credit for were well under way when Betty Friedan was a frustrated housewife seething in the suburbs. In 1963, nearly half of American women worked outside the home, pursuing opportunities all by their helpless selves." - Women Who Make the World Worse : and How Their Radical Feminist Assault Is Ruining Our Schools, Families, Military, and Sports by Kate O'Beirne (link)

"From the time I was in junior high school when I decided to become a lawyer until I ceased working in order to raise a family, I received unstinting encouragement and support. Teachers and counselors in high school and college energetically assisted in my efforts without ever questioning the suitability of my aspirations... Workplace discrimination played no part in the decisions many of us made to cease working outside the home. We were impelled to stay with our children by the strong emotional pull they exercised on us and because we thought our presence was the single best guarantee of their well-being... The women who acted upon the teachings of feminist sexual revolutionaries have suffered greatly." - Domestic Tranquility: A Brief Against Feminism by Carolyn Graglia (link)

“Between 1943 and 1999, even as life expectancy rose, the age of first intercourse dropped from nineteen to fifteen for females. During the same period, the percentage of sexually active young women rose from 13 to 47 percent. And between 1969 and 1993, the percentage of female teenagers and young adults having oral sex skyrocketed from 42 to 71 percent. But perhaps the most dramatic phenomenon was the revolution in young women's beliefs about premarital sex. Only 12 percent approved of it in 1943; by 1999, 73 percent did.” - Prude: How the Sex-Obsessed Culture Damages Girls (and America, Too!) by Carol Platt Liebau

“For a man this might be a pleasant trip down memory lane, counting up his conquests. But for a girl, it’s a whole other story. I had let these men inside me, wanting that to make me matter to them. Wanting it to make me matter. Now they were just cross outs and question marks. At some point, I gave up, disgusted with myself. I crumpled the paper and threw it away. This is not a list of which I am proud. Still, it is a telling of my story.” Loose Girl: A Memoir of Promiscuity by Kerry Cohen (link)

Miriam Grossman rips back the curtain on sex education today, exposing a sordid truth. Instead of teaching our children the facts of life, sex educators are lying to them, ignoring medical fact in favor of politicized, and dangerous, propaganda that could ruin your child's life forever: “They are dedicated to promoting radical social ideologies, not preventing disease.” - You're Teaching My Child What?: A Physician Exposes the Lies of Sex Education and How They Harm Your Child by Miriam Grossman (link) [[In the US today a quarter of all adolescent girls have a sexually transmitted infection.]]

“About 70 percent of these e-mails and letters indicated that the writer felt that wanting marriage and children was an aspiration she needed to “hide… This did not surprise me, but I was shocked that according to nearly half of the letters, a girl’s own parent thought something was wrong with her for not being sufficiently casual about sex.” - The Good Girl Revolution: Young Rebels with Self-Esteem and High Standards by Wendy Shalit (I have personally experienced this with my feminist mother trying to pressure me to lose my virginity before I was ready as well.) (link)

"I happened to know a lot of women, and they didn't seem either depressed or oppressed to me. Some went back to work when their children were old enough; some became active in local civic organizations; and some got interested in politics. Living in the suburbs was the result of a decision, rather than the imposition of a sexist society." - An Old Wife's Tale: My Seven Decades in Love and War by Midge Decter (link)

Friedan recounts the political infighting and dirty tricks that occurred within the Movement as well as the forces that tried to destroy it and how hard she fought to keep the Movement practical and free of extremism, including "man-hating." - Life So Far: A Memoir by Betty Friedan (link) [[Also mentions her relationship with her insane mother and how she used to feel that 'all mothers should be drowned at birth.']]

"This is the book that defined "the problem that has no name," that launched the Second Wave of the feminist movement" (they have to keep saying 2nd wave because again, it is not the same as women's liberation!) / "It was easier for me start the women's movement than to change my own personal life." - The Feminine Mystique by Betty Friedan (link)

Feminism's ERA: "ERA activists persisted in desperate tactics at that crucial statehouse... On June 25, ERA supporters went to a slaughterhouse, purchased plastic bags of pigs' blood, and used it to spell out the names of the legislators they hated most on the capitol's marble floor." - From Suffrage to the Senate: An Encyclopedia of American Women in Politics, Volume 1 by Suzanne O'Dea Schenken (link)

"No we don't believe any woman should have this choice. No woman should be authorized to stay home to raise her children. Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one." - spoken by Simone deBeauvoir, famous French feminist icon, It Changed My Life: Writings on the Women's Movement by Betty Friedan (link)

Feminism Hypocrisy: “The person who told the world that "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle," got married…. Barbara Walters: OK, Gloria [Steinem], here we go. I have to throw your own words back at you. Quote: "You become a semi-non person when you get married. The surest way to be alone is to get married."” - Walters Interviews Gloria Steinem (link)

“The confusion over roles is there, as are the legacies of a self-absorbed, me-first, feminist-do-or-die, male-backlash society” - The Good Marriage: How and Why Love Lasts Paperback by Judith S. Wallerstein & Sandra Blkeslee (link)

“adult offspring of single-mothers-by-choice were 177% more likely to report having had trouble with drugs and alcohol than children born to two biological parents…. also 146% more likely to report having been "in trouble with the law" before age 25.” - My Daddy's Name Is Donor: A New Study of Young Adults Conceived through Sperm Donation by Elizabeth Marquardt, Norval D. Glenn & Karen Clark (link)

Don't worry misanthrope86, I got a ton more that I will send you later.

Except nobody is complaining about it! Most people seem to be in love with their precious Emma and applaud this casting decision. Like come on, you won't even allow for some people to have their own minority opinion? Good lord this seems like a cult.

Aang_Lite: Thank you for showing respect and a willingness to politely converse about this. I appreciate it.

I believe in the term Women's Liberation and the progress for women's rights according to what that term entailed in 1920, correct. And I dislike the term Feminism because of the way it's been presented in society and the implications it now has over the past 45 years when it has been pushed as "feminism" not "women's liberation". The problem for me isn't just the linguistics which are a factor but the fact that both these terms, in America, describe 2 completely different movements by 2 different sets of people with 2 different sets of goals. Yes, for me "Feminism = bra burning and man-hating and the general de-feminization of women" amongst many other things. "As a whole feminism now only means radicalization." Yes, you are correct in your assessment of what I am trying to say here.

The 2 terms have come to be synonymous because feminism has spent the last 45 years making it so. The reality of the situation however, is that women's liberation fought for my rights whereas feminism did nothing for me but hurt me, as a female American citizen. If you have ever read the book 1984 by George Orwell then you will notice the similarities of how trying to change the meaning of a word really is such an insidious tactic. This is a tactic that feminism uses with women's liberation. They incorrectly associate themselves as being the same even though they are not.

I do not support the "strides" made by feminism in the 1960s-1970s nor do I agree that they were "strides". This was the beginning of women gone wrong to me, when the sexual revolution and bra-burning that you mentioned before started. Women already had equality and protection in the workforce pre-1963 when feminism in America began. Second wave feminism is radical feminism to me. I supported the women's liberation group in 1920 and thankful they got my right to vote. I am not thankful to, nor am I supportive of, what the feminist goals of the 60s to now have been.

I'll make it really simple and you can let me know if it still needs to wait for another time but: When I say the difference between genders being "equal" and the "same", I mean both genders deserve "equal" opportunities (as women's liberation fought for) but the results do not have to come out equally the "same" every time in every field as feminists of 1960-now believe.

I know full well and have realized that the term feminism is often used to embody the same values that I gave for Women's liberation, which is why I personally avoid both terms by labeling myself only as egalitarian or humanist. When speaking about feminism though, I use women's liberation for the group that actually called themselves that aka the suffragettes and feminism for the group that actually called themselves that aka 1960s feminists to now.

To bring it back to the original subject of the poll, (and thank you for doing just that) I do not trust Emma Watson's sincerity about truly caring about men and their rights. I see lots of "feminists" use feminism to further bash masculinity and only support men if they are in line with feminist views. I do not agree with this, clearly, as I believe both men and women should be supported in their civil rights and struggles despite personal affiliation with feminism, which truly is a lobbyist political action group that takes taxpayer money to pay for endeavors that I do not agree nor want to pay for like making bathrooms unisex or suing male teams to let females play but not female teams to let males play, etc.

I know what the verbal definition of feminism, I have had it recited to me many times. Unfortunately for feminism, I believe that our actions speak louder than our words. So while the words from feminism's definition are really pretty, their actions are far from. I understand the argument that "not all feminists are like the extreme radical ones" and that is a very fair argument. However, all of the feminists in America who have the money and power to make the biggest influences in the laws of our society as well as mainstream media (that directly affect me, how I was raised, why I was raised that way and having to pay for it) are those extreme radical feminists which is the problem. So I don't support "feminism" because I refuse to support them and all of the trouble they have caused and continue to cause.

"I’ve seen men made fragile and insecure by a distorted sense of what constitutes male success. Men don’t have the benefits of equality either. We don’t often talk about men being imprisoned by gender stereotypes but I can see that that they are and that when they are free, things will change for women as a natural consequence." - This is my problem with feminism and Emma Watson. This is where it is sexist and hypocritical to me. Most men are more masculine than feminists want to admit and those men are the ones who get hurt the most by the feminist push to basically "feminize" them. Gender stereotypes are not what is hurting men in America right now at all but rather radical feminist stereotypes of men. Men and primarily young boys are losing a lot of freedom as well as their sanity and individuality by feminism putting pressure on them to go against their nature and be more feminine. Truly there are many men in America who don't feel like they can be men anymore because masculinity has become so demonized. The factual feminist that I provided a link to actually talks about this a lot and it's one of the issues that feminists get the most mad at her for. Feminism in American mainstream media refuses to accept and acknowledge the real problems that men are facing and often refuse to let men speak about it. I would gladly show you videos of American media where the newscasters are blatantly sexist and have rude, inattentive attitudes towards male issues and always try to spin it to be the male's fault yet in the same clip will counter that women face the same issues for men's fault and not their own. It deeply saddens me to see the way feminism with power in my country treats it's male inhabitants, especially under the guise of feminism.

As you can see feminism is not really about the equality of all people, but fighting only for women to have equality to men. Emma Watson graduated from a college that was a known feminist college in the 60s-70s that loves feminist doctrine. It is very hard for me to believe that Emma Watson wasn't just saying that to try to revive the dying feminism that openly rejected and hated men for almost 50 years. I do think it's great if Emma Watson's new feminism movement actually wants to protect masculinity and femininity, not just feminism's version of those things, but I don't see that being so.

I don't disregard all feminists as I know there are good women who get seduced by feminism. I disregard feminism itself for being founded as a sexist movement that just became more hypocritical and hateful as time went on and they gained even more power. I understand your belief and why you feel that way. Now on the other hand, it is my belief that to label oneself a "feminist" when they can easily go online and look up all of the horrible things feminism has done or walk into any library and check out any book on all of the negative repercussions of feminism is very misguided as well. That is why I have more respect for people who don't choose the word that is linguistically sexist and the movement that is proven by it's own actions to be sexist.

As far as the link I provided for showing "Feminism has failed, in my opinion. " The video actually didn't make any reaching conclusions at all. The video primarily focused on the study and gave a small bit at the end asking opinions about why from a feminist woman and then said "we'll look into this". I would hardly calling that "making some very reaching conclusions". It seemed to me more like they simply showed the data and had logical shocked reactions considering they are told women are supposed to be happier post-feminism rather than pre-feminism.

I think it's also important to notice that the trend of the study, yes fluctuating, started with women stating they were "very happy" whereas more men said they were "not too happy". This goes against the feminist narrative that all women were not happy and all men were happy because the patriarchy was thriving full and well off the backs of unhappy women. I think it's also important to note Figure 4 which shows European men and women to have much more balance in happiness. This is especially important considering America has some of the most aggressive feminists (though admittedly Canada has some horrible ones too) and some of the least checks and balances for feminism. That being said, we don't really know if an analysis was done to say what caused these numbers. It is very likely that the analysis was done but not produced if it hurts feminism's standing. Considering that study was done 6 years ago, it is very concerning that feminism wouldn't have jumped on a further analysis to find out exactly what was causing women's unhappiness, especially considering that should be a primary concern for them. It does however make sense if they did do the study but the findings went against them so they chose not to publish them. I think the power of radical feminists in America is vastly underrated by those who don't understand the importance of the feminist lobbyist political action group and how much money they have.

"to chock it up to a problem with feminism and with no evidence at that, is very misguided." Well then I guess it's a good thing that I haven't done that "with no evidence" then. I have read plenty of accounts from ex-feminists and daughters of feminists etc. who speak about the repercussions of feminism. I have personally experienced the negative repercussions of feminism. I see that material from women pre-feminism in America was much more positive and women were happier then the material from women now which is much more negative, antagonistic or full of complaints. This is completely ironic since they have more freedoms yet more complaints.

"Rather than immediately inferring that the women’s movement failed to improve the lot of women, we conclude with a simple taxonomy for organizing alternative explanations of this paradox." I find this insulting. Who said the women's movement failed? I think women's liberation was entirely successful, I think feminism failed. Who said they were immediately inferring anything? You do realize that video and study is from 6 years ago, right? So why would you infer that I immediately assumed it was feminism without looking into it? That is the kind of thinking that feminism seems to breed to me. This idea that if anyone disagrees with feminism, it must be some immediate and/or ignorant action that couldn't possibly have been done over a long period of extensive reading and research even though I did.

^ Lots of juicy factual inaccuracies in there, but I get that's your jam.

My comment is in response to your last comment to me, laylastepford.

"You are really truly insulting."
- I find it funny that someone who has accused me of being "emotional" and "angry" about all this is the one who is constantly whinging about how insulted they are by someone pointing out their willful ignorance.

You are welcome to ask me how I came upon my username. Wrong once again! Oh dear. I think you would actually really get a kick out of the story.

"Statements and attacks like yours are exact examples of why I would never call myself a feminist, because I would never want to be associated with people like you. I truly do believe attitudes like yours are incredibly harmful to women and society."
- I have always found that anti-feminists don't like being confronted with people who point out their ignorance. Your comments here, and in other places around this club, are disgusting and dangerous. You have said things that could put people at risk. Your ravings are harmful to people, to women, to men, to children. You have been provided the evidence to support that claim. You are willfully ignoring this information. That is on you.

"I already stated feminism lies about picking up where women's liberation left off and being a new version of it."
- And I've already provided the evidence that you are wrong.

"The feminists who are actually in charge, the lobbyist political action groups are full of the women that the majority of Americans, Canadians and other Europeans refer to as "feminazis", the militant feminists who attack anyone who disagrees with feminist views and also goes as far as to insult the character of the person sharing those views."
- I think I have Conspiracy Theorist Bingo guys! The majority of Americans/Canadians/Europeans you say? Got a source for that? More ravings that have no merit. You seem unable to learn here.

"Because these feminists say they want to be the same as men yet cannot admit their own female weaknesses the same as males admit theirs."
- Absolute nonsense.

"Because your life is so much better and happier with feminism in it?"
- Yes! Infinitely! And it has made yours better too, whether you can comprehend that or not.

"Yes, it seems to have made you so much more open-minded and polite, as everyone can see."
- I am always impolite to bigots. And remember our multiple karma conversations? You get what you give.

"You are a shining example of feminism and its treatment of those who do not agree."
- Can you remember what I have told you repeatedly? That I don't require you to agree with feminism? That I require you to understand feminism before you reject it?

"Must you always pull the childish "I know you are but what am I" tactic?"
- I don't think you understand that phrase.

"I don't have to cite my sources, it's linked."
- Uh, nope, you linked to two videos, both of which are secondary popular culture citations, and neither of them cover all your raving claims.

"You are not convincing at all that feminism breeds anything good especially by your attitude and treatment of another woman and her choice."
- You choice is to be ignorant and spread hatred. It is against the tenets of humanism and egalitarianism to be willfully ignorant too.

"Women's liberation and feminism are not interchangeable."
- They are. Tough feminist titties.

I don't respect you or your opinions. Because they are dangerous and ill-informed. You have had so, so many opportunities to show anyone else in any of these conversations even a teeny, tiny shred of respect, and you haven't. I don't respect you because you do not respect anyone else.

"There is nothing factually incorrect about what I said about Betty Friedan and feminism."
- Accept for all of it. I provided a source that contained multiple other sources. You provided your ravings.

"I never said there wasn't history beyond American history, I clearly said 1) Disney is an American company dealing with 2) American feminist lobbyists and 3) the affect of American feminism on American society."
- Remember when I asked you to clarify your position on world history multiple times, and you didn't? You dismissed the source I sent you because it talked about French history, not American history, then refused to answer follow up questions.

"I stated fact where it was fact."
- You have stated exactly 0 facts. Ravings are not facts.

"you live in New Zealand so you should really stop insulting me by acting like you know more about how American feminism has affected the society and culture that I live and you do not. I wish you would realize how disrespectful you are being."
- I am extremely familiar with American feminism. I am all up in it. We get it all the way over here in little ol' New Zealand. I absolutely believe in your cultural specificity. And I absolutely believe in mine. But this is global. Your anti-feminism reaches people across the globe, just as my feminism does. If you preach hatred on a global platform, there will be a global response.

"Please do not to pretend to be sorry for me when you treat me just like my abusers and the people who excused them."
- Dignifying this with a response sickens me, but you are now explicitly guilty of what you have accused feminists of. Vile and dangerous.

"I don't insult you."
- You don't insult me personally because I have no respect for what you say here. You continually demonstrate an unwillingness to communicate respectfully and you don't engage in any civil debate about anything. You cannot insult me. Your pride in your dangerous ignorance repulses me.

"patriarchy is to blame for domestic abuse"
- I have seen you absolutely disgusting, dangerous and horrifying comments about domestic abuse in this club. Your comments are abhorrent. And this comment here is a further representation of your wild and ill-informed assumptions about my position, and about what feminism is. Your comments are dangerously and repulsive ignorant.

"I have not taken out any of my pain on people here"
- You are a bully in this club.

"I have never once tried to silence you in anyway and I'd love to see proof of your ludicrous and outrageous claims"
- Um... all the times you have told me to stop talking about things... to stop "insulting" you with evidence that counters your ravings... you told me in the above comment to stop "insulting" you since you are American and I'm a New Zealander...?!

"I hope everyone else notices your continuous exaggerated word play."
- HA HA HA HA HA oh my god that seals it. It's over. You have no insight at all. None. Zero. LOL.

"Just like a business changes it's name when it starts selling different products, so feminism had to change it's name from women's liberation as they were selling a different product."
- I re-refer you to the link you dismissed earlier about the history of feminism. Ignore as you please and continue your ravings!

Ok, now for some random sources...? When I highlight a raving of yours and ask you to cite your sources, what I mean is cite your sources for that specific raving.

"The feminist message for women is inextricably linked to the individualist message"
- This statement has been debunked a bajillion times. The book itself is about individualism, so it is unsurprising that feminism and all the other -isms pop up. You'll also note that your comments lean heavily towards the individualist. So not sure what you are trying to say with this... Please explain with more evidence.

"Women's magazines, a nearly $7 billion-a-year business, are based on telling women their lives are too rough for them to handle and they should feel very sorry for themselves. This distorted vision of your life is absolutely crazy."
- Exactly! This is a feminist issue! Glad we agree on this! At least I think we do. It is hard to tell since you are just throwing stuff randomly.

"sit on review panels to give federal grants to each other to study things only they care about. Every new law they design comes with hundreds of millions of dollars in feminist pork spending"
- Propaganda book. Dismissed.

"It’s women who live with men that hate men. Lesbians could kind of take it or leave it alone, you know. And we had great slogans, like sink into his arms and you may end up with your arms in his sink. Like we’re becoming the men we wanted to marry."
- Yep, a feminist discussion of gender in that link. I take it you did not actually read the whole thing, since it is very explicitly feminist in its discussion of the harm gender roles can have on raising children, then in later life, and even on policy.

"Women are split between a majority who are traditionally feminine and others who are more like men"
- Who does he cite here? Which studies?

"And while part of the power of feminism is its intellectual diversity, certain things are inarguable. Feminism is a social justice movement with values and goals that benefit women. It's a structural analysis of a world that oppresses women, an ideology based on the notion that patriarchy exists and that it needs to end."
- Yes, this opinion piece on Palin's 'fake feminism' is a nice discussion of how she had no idea what feminism was and corrupted it. It highlights how Palin misappropriated the word for her own ends (much as you do! lol!). There are important discussions in this piece, but not sure what you are trying to argue by citing this. Perhaps you have misread the piece?

'Save the Males: Why Men Matter Why Women Should Care', 'Women Who Make the World Worse: and How Their Radical Feminist Assault Is Ruining Our Schools, Families, Military, and Sports' and 'Domestic Tranquility: A Brief Against Feminism' are all propganda books that are not citing sources to make their arugments, at least in the snippets you have provided, and the other snippets I've found. Dismissed.

"Between 1943 and 1999, even as life expectancy rose, the age of first intercourse dropped from nineteen to fifteen for females. During the same period, the percentage of sexually active young women rose from 13 to 47 percent. And between 1969 and 1993, the percentage of female teenagers and young adults having oral sex skyrocketed from 42 to 71 percent. But perhaps the most dramatic phenomenon was the revolution in young women's beliefs about premarital sex. Only 12 percent approved of it in 1943; by 1999, 73 percent did.”
- Would be interested to see the actual study here, not a secondary citation. Would also like to know why you wanna talk about sex now? Are you saying feminism makes girls have sex? If you are, I have a mega-shitload of stuff to share with you.

"Loose Girl: A Memoir of Promiscuity"
- Also important to hear these stories. Women's stories are important!

"You're Teaching My Child What?: A Physician Exposes the Lies of Sex Education and How They Harm Your Child"
- Yes, sex education is important, but inadequate.

“About 70 percent of these e-mails and letters indicated that the writer felt that wanting marriage and children was an aspiration she needed to “hide… This did not surprise me, but I was shocked that according to nearly half of the letters, a girl’s own parent thought something was wrong with her for not being sufficiently casual about sex."
- Again I would like to see the original study. These ideas about what a woman should or shouldn't be doing with her life and her body come responses to feminism, like anti-feminism, that position feminists as man-haters and sluts.

"I have personally experienced this with my feminist mother trying to pressure me to lose my virginity before I was ready as well."
- And that is wrong and unacceptable. I am sorry she pressure you. But that is not feminist. Feminism is about women having control over your body as your own. This was wrong what happened to you and it was not feminist in any way, shape or form. Feminism fights for your right to choose what happens to your body. I am not denying your pain. I am horrified that anyone would do that in the name of feminism. Because it is anti-feminist to do such a thing.

"Living in the suburbs was the result of a decision, rather than the imposition of a sexist society."
- Agreed. It is much, much more complex than sexism!

"Friedan recounts the political infighting and dirty tricks that occurred within the Movement as well as the forces that tried to destroy it and how hard she fought to keep the Movement practical and free of extremism, including "man-hating."
- Yep, there are extremists in any group. There are extreme anti-feminists, you know. Some of them kill. With regularity.

I own The Feminine Mystique. Not a big fan, but still I suggest you read it in its entirety to understand its meaning.

"ERA activists persisted in desperate tactics at that crucial statehouse... On June 25, ERA supporters went to a slaughterhouse, purchased plastic bags of pigs' blood, and used it to spell out the names of the legislators they hated most on the capitol's marble floor"
- Not a tactic unique to feminists. Pretty tame one, actually. Why do you think there was desperation here? Other thank clocks ticking lolololol

"No we don't believe any woman should have this choice. No woman should be authorized to stay home to raise her children. Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one."
- Are you for or against Betty? I do not agree with statement. Women should be able to choose what they want to do with their lives. The issue, for me, lies in how we value the choices. This valuing (and non-valuing, as the case may be) troubles me.

"a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle"
- Continues to be true even after marriage. I'm intrigued that you did not include Gloria's response to Barbara's question, which was: "Yeah, well I think that's often, that's often true. But to be against unequal marriage is not the same thing as being against marriage." This seems to be the crux of the issue.

"The Good Marriage: How and Why Love Lasts"
- Unreferenced self-help pop-propaganda. Dismissed.

"adult offspring of single-mothers-by-choice were 177% more likely to report having had trouble with drugs and alcohol than children born to two biological parents…. also 146% more likely to report having been "in trouble with the law" before age 25."
- Again, you are blaming feminism for women having the choice to have children, and this is ruining everybody's lives? I would like to see the original study.

While you have done MUCH better to not cite Wikipedia, I would love to a) see you cite your sources for things I actually asked for (see all previous comments), and b) see actual academic, peer-reviewed studies that support your claims. Books are neat, and very important, but the kinds of claims you are making are the kinds of claims easily found in books (which anyone can write and get published), but NOT easily supported by academic research, which is subject to tighter methodologically restrictions and is peer-reviewed. Granted, studies have their limitations, which is why I am always highly critical of any study, but being aware of those limitations and what they mean is really important. Many of these books here are no subject to academic rigor, and lots of them fall into the self-help, pop-psychology category. But thank you for actually attempting to cite a source. I appreciate that you have gone to the effort to find stuff beyond Wikipedia.

It's funny, I used to be a total Emma Watson freak, but she really annoys me now. I don't think she's a good choice for Belle, she's really really beautiful, but her acting skill is mediocre. And like laylastepford said, the movie is going to have a feminist/political message and I don't like that. Also, I'm already cringing because I know that EW will brag about how much she is like Belle "oh i relate so much to belle, we have so much in common we both like to read we both are introverted ^^" and it's going to be so irritating

^ Agreed. Part of the problem for me as well is that I fear that Belle won't be correctly played for all of her nuances as I mentioned before, things like her being adventurous and outdoorsy which are often overlooked in favor of an "indoor bookworm" persona that is more of a stereotype than proper representation of Belle.

misanthrope86: Everyone else seems to be tired of this conversation going off on such a tangent from the poll. You may not respect these other people but I do so I'm not going to respond to you anymore. I am very tired of your nonsensical arguments and tasteless conduct full of insults and attacks. It is pointless to continue talking with you since you just want to attack and not actually have a polite and respectful, enlightening and intellectual or even relevant discussion. When you learn how to talk like a decent human being then perhaps we can actually try to have a decent and humane conversation.

^ If nothing else, I hope that you think carefully before you speak in future interactions in this club, and everywhere else on this site. Words matter. Use them responsibly.

^ Same to you.

^ Already got that one in the bag, dude. I hope Santa brings you the sense to see that this christmas.

"^To each their own. As you've said before, we should stop listening to negative criticism and just enjoy what we want to enjoy."

well, this poll was kind of negative, calling a few people "negative nancies" for disagreeing with a popular opinion, and you're not letting us enjoy the freedom to think she's a bad choice. this is getting more and more common on fanpop.

Her acting wasn't all that great. She was rather flat and lifeless.

My opinion has nothing to do with the way she looks, or the fact that the movie is new (I liked the Cinderella remake).