Cut characters, A Feast for Crows, and why the absence of a certain Lady still matters 

Cut characters, A Feast for Crows, and why the absence of a certain Lady still matters

showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss were asked about the ongoing absence of a certain popular character from the books. And no, we’re not talking about Strong Belwas. (RIP Strong Belwas.)

There are still people and places that insist that even saying her name in an article is some kind of huge spoiler—and that includes

who asked showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss about it in their latest interview. But I maintain (and you can feel very free to disagree) that we book readers made such a huge screaming fuss over the lack of her appearance at the end of last season that even the most stubborn of Unsullied knows her name. This past off-season has been been one long stubborn insistence that she would appear. Since June, our tip line has received dozens of emails with false pictures of Fairley’s fake head from the Red Wedding, cited as proof she would return. We’ve been spammed over Twitter, Facebook and Tumblr, with various “here’s the proof” theories the producers were just kidding, and she was going to show up. Someone even went to IMDB a few weeks ago and added her to the cast list in the ultimate act of trolling. All this, even though Michelle Fairley had no idea she existed until the morning after the Season 4 finale when everyone started calling her to ask why the character didn’t show up, and when she asked the producers about it, they said: “No. Sorry. Go find work on other shows.”

But you know who are really tired of being asked to talk about this? Benioff and Weiss. Check out what they had to say below when asked yet again. And please be advised:

has asked the production about Lady Stoneheart. Weiss’s new quote suggests he is quite ready to put the subject to bed.

“We reached that point that commenting individually on what is or is not in the show from the books is a prospect of diminishing returns,” Weiss said. “Early on in the process, it was something we talked about a fair amount. [The change of strategy is] not out of any disrespect; the fact that people care enough about the books and the show to have arguments about it is something we have huge gratitude and respect for. I just don’t think there’s value in anything we have to say about it. It opens a Pandora’s box of questions you could spend your whole life answering, and the net result is that what you said will probably make people less happy than if you hadn’t said anything.”

This is something of a backtrack from the first comments made on the subject by director Alex Graves, who make light of the notion of Lady Stoneheart “stumbling around the Westeros countryside,” and suggested that it would be “a waste of Fairley’s talents.” Also, I think it’s fair to surmise that this “change in strategy” has come about because of the fan’s reaction to her being cut.

But there’s a reason for that reaction, and it stems from

being such a frustrating read. Leaving aside the complete absence of Tyrion Lannister, Jon Snow, Bran Stark, and Daenerys, much of what we sit through in that book felt like…well, like watching someone play the fiddle while Rome burns. After all, Cersei’s machinations now that she runs King’s Landing might be very interesting in the moment, but in the overall picture, it’s hard to see how any of it will amount to a hill of beans once the White Walkers and dragons show up. To me, one of the very few things that did feel important

 Lady Stoneheart. Partly, this is because I’m assuming that her “zombie rebirth” is only the first of many. Several sympathetic characters who die, or who have been left for dead, have or will suddenly turn up, hooded and mysterious, like a Good Guy Zombie Army springing up from the soil of Westeros by magic, not knowing that they still move because they’ll be needed to fight that blue eyed Bad Guy Zombie Army that’s coming over the Wall.

So to suddenly have the production tell us that this character—who many book readers assumed would somehow be important—was not just cut, but “not actually necessary” was a shock. It was like being told that Ned wasn’t going to take that Hand of the King position—not really necessary, you know? I think this is why the fans have reacted so strongly and keep asking about her, even though Benioff and Weiss are not Steve Moffat. They don’t lie to us like that. After all, when Coldhands didn’t show up, people didn’t freak out, despite the favored theory that he’s somehow related to the Stark clan. But being told that Stoneheart wasn’t really important was too hard—it basically took what little we knew from

Benioff asks fans to have patience with them.

“People will complain about things because they don’t know what’s coming up ahead,” Benioff said. “ ‘Why haven’t we seen this guy?’ And I think it will be easier once everything is out and it’s 70 hours. Not that people shouldn’t complain—that’s why God invented the Internet—but I think we’d be better able to have that argument later. Sometimes we’re going in a different order or telling a different story. We think the story will all make sense at the end. Otherwise it will be eight wasted years.”

Note once again that Benioff insists this is 70 hours. The more they insist on that, the more I become convinced we are heading into prepping for the end game this season. If that’s the case, there’s a lot of trimming and plot line streaming and work to cut the books down into a manageable narrative that can be finished in the next 30 hours. After all, this is not Lady Stoneheart’s story. This is a story that started off focusing on the next generation—Arya, Bran, Sansa, Dany, Jon Snow—those born after Robert’s Rebellion. I believe it is still their story. I may be sorry to never see characters like Lady Stoneheart, Strong Belwas, or Coldhands on the screen. But we should remember to keep our eyes on the prize.

Tagged Dan Weiss, David Benioff, Game of Thrones, Lady Stoneheart, season 5

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I am one of the minority who always found Lady Stoneheart to be intrusive to the narrative, and so I’m relieved that (maybe) she will not reappear. It’s hard to see what kind of important storyline she could have. It has all the feel of a development that popped into Martin’s imagination without much thought.

Another thought: if she does not reappear, maybe that’s because she in fact does not have an important role in Martin’s future books. That’s a piece of information that the Game of Thrones’ writers might have that we do not.

72 to 73 hours to be exact, as there WILL BE a motion picture to end it all.

Consider the money they will pour into the sets for the next two seasons, it will be stupid not to take advantage of these investments, as the cost for a motion picture will be significantly less than it normally would since all the settings, customs and props are ready made.

If I was HBO executive, I will side with George Martin and insist Benioff & Weiss to do it.

I’m one of those who subscribes to the idea that saving resurrection for

Jon Snow after ‘For the Watch’ after it was introduced in season 3 by Thoros and Beric is a better idea than wasting it on introducing LSH. First of all, Jon’s death will be a huge shocker to the Unsullied show watchers, and his rebirth will have stronger meaning if it has not been used already to bring a loved character back in Catelyn It’s likely that the essence of LSH arc will be given to Sansa since she is going to WF. The story is condensing from here on out, and to me is clear that this show will end after season 7, so there’s no point in introducing characters who are not going to play a major role towards setting up the end game conflict/resolution.

I don’t believe there will be a motion picture to conclude it. HBO president has said that would be a betrayal to the HBO subscribers because they expect to have the story that was introduced on the channel they are paying for, to be shown on that channel. They don’t want their audience to have to pay extra to see their favorite shows conclude on another medium altogether.

Couldn’t they merge aspects of the Lady Stoneheart’s storyline with Sansa’s? That would give her something to do besides being sent to Winterfell to be abused by the Boltons so Theon can have his big Hero moment.

Spoiler alert: Lady Stoneheart will never sit on the Iron Throne.

The story will do just fine without her as an easter egg. She seems to only there to kill some Freys and give people like Brienne a hard time. I’d guess she’s going to get re-killed again by one of her daughters or something. She’s there for some tragic purpose. But she’s already dead once that was already her tragic contribution to the series, they should have just left her dead.

The problem with Lady Stoneheart is that she is only in two scenes in the books, and due to the nature of her, you can’t really expand more than that. Audiences would be annoyed if you saw her, and then not see her again.

They’re tired? I’m tired of seeing the show shortchanged over the last two years. Plenty of other fans are tired of their rank disregard for entire swathes of plot.

Thak you Weiss and Benioff for cutting that out. Worst plot twist in history of literature.

I’m a little confused by this article. The quote from Weiss just says that they decided not to answer questions about why they chose to do things differently from the book. To that I say “fair play”. Whether that policy has anything to do with Lady Stoneheart is pure speculation.

But then two paragraphs later the article quotes that Lady Stoneheart is “not actually necessary”—where does that quote come from exactly? Who said that? When?

Even if someone said it, it doesn’t mean she’s not necessary to the books. Clearly the plot of the books is going to be much more complicated than the show, with many more characters involved in events, with many of those characters having very different motivations than they do in the show. Is she necessary to the thematic throughline common to both? Maybe not. Is she necessary to the plot of the show? Also maybe not. That doesn’t mean she’s not necessary to the plot of the books.

The character makes for good fun drama. I can’t imagine the producers reading the end of book 3 and tossing it aside and saying ‘ho hum, that ending meant nothing’.

That being said, let’s move forward. The Lady ain’t showing up. There’s no way she would at this late venture.

I really hope they do the same to patchface. I know he says stuff but meh, don’t wanna see him pop up all late like Dontos. Lol.

the inevitable “Jaime and Brienne are forced to fight to the death” scene? I mean maybe they’ll find another way to go about it, but I watching scenes where Brienne swears an oath to Cat, and she tells Brienne “I vow that I shall ask no service of you that shall bring you dishonor.” just feels like a waste of a perfect set up. See, I’m more sad that we’re losing a bunch of juicy narrative stuff for Brienne’s story.

Winston, if you think Brienne would ever fight Jamie to the death, you haven’t been paying attention. Nor would Jaime fight (to kill) Brienne. They have the most solid friendship-bordering-on-love relationship in the whole series.

I can’t say I’m happy with what the series is doing from this season onwards (

condensing 60 hours minimum of film into 30 hours

), but I understand why they’re doing it. It’s not about cutting ‘SH’, that’s not really the issue here, but they’re skipping so many things and combining too many things to maintain the suspense and speed and impact of the ending of season 3 and the entirety of season 4. It’s all about maintaining the viewers now (no longer about telling the story the way it should be told, which needs at least 9 or 10 seasons). I think the main reason they’re doing this, is because they’re actually not good enough to write entertaining slow paced scenes without GRRM, since the books are not out, they have to write all the material themselves… They’d rather just hit all the milestones in the story. And I don’t blame them, it’s not easy, and they can’t really pause and wait for GRRM. I just hope George takes his time and does it the way he wants to, and not be rushed to write book 6 or 7.

LordFireheart wrote: “They’re tired? I’m tired of seeing the show shortchanged over the last two years. Plenty of other fans are tired of their rank disregard for entire swathes of plot.”

The show hasn’t been shortchanged. This is not A Song of Ice and Fire. It is an ADAPTATION of the novels called Game of Thrones, and dramatic license can be, and always was going to be, taken. They were never going to keep all of the little bits in. What they *have* done is keep the major storylines, and many of the major set pieces, and turned them into TV gold.

Yes, much of books four and five that don’t concern the currently established characters is being dumped – I mean, does any Game of Thrones fan who HASN’T read the books wants to see hours dedicated to new characters instead of the further adventures of Tyrion, Dany or Jon Snow? I guarantee you the answer is no.

Purist book fans can either accommodate this, or stop watching. Nothing’s keeping anyone watching this show. It’s keeping millions of people watching all by itself, with our without Lady Stoneheart or any other character left behind.

(And none of this takes anything away from the novels. They still exist for people to read and enjoy.)

I’m still enormously pissed that Coldhands wasn’t in it!!!!

Probably the most confusing article Ive ever read on here …

Benioff & Weiss skirt around the issue and refuse again to say definitively she’s cut. Article seems to maintain both that she’s cut and that … she maybe isn’t.

For the love of God, just confirm she’s out so people who enjoyed that element of the story can move on and not go another season hoping she’ll either show up or pour over non-existent clues in the soundtrack or on cast members Twitter accounts every time they’re trolled.

What’s worse, you just know at some point soon some new red herring will appear, like “Stone” or “Heart” in an episode title or a spy pic of a hanging Frey, and come the event it’ll somehow end up NOT being about her.

Plenty of characters had like two lines in each book (Margaery, Loras, Renly…etc) yet were given numerous scenes that didn’t happen in the book, Why can’t they do that with LSH? I mean they can have her talking more in the show (in a raspy voice that’ll be easier for the viewers to understand) talking to Thoros about revenge (while holding Robb’s crown) and having a longer conversation with Brienne (asking her about Oathkeeper and the Lannisters)

I mean we got a Missandei and Grey Worm love story instead for heaven’s sake!!!

Wyman Manderly I’ll riot. Just kidding, but maybe.

Chad Brick Posted March 26, 2015 at 5:39 pm

“Am I the only one who’s sad that we’re losing the inevitable “Jaime and Brienne are forced to fight to the death” scene? I mean maybe they’ll find another way to go about it, but I watching scenes where Brienne swears an oath to Cat, and she tells Brienne “I vow that I shall ask no service of you that shall bring you dishonor.” just feels like a waste of a perfect set up. See, I’m more sad that we’re losing a bunch of juicy narrative stuff for Brienne’s story.”

No you are not. D&D have repeatedly said they are “going to the same place” as GRRM, and for two of the top ten most important characters remaining in the show, that “place” is a collision course in front of LSH where one or both may die (and subsequently be resurrected?). What fan-fiction crap would D&D substitute for this and why? Having Jaime’s final scene this season being the tossing Cersei’s note in the fire and heading off to/with Brienne, who is in the process of betraying him to LSH, would be pitch-perfect.

I agree. Why waste all the set up (both with respect to Brienne and the Brotherhood) and then just toss it away? What satisfactory end-game for all of that could D&D swap in?

Chad Brick Posted March 26, 2015 at 5:44 pm

What they *have* done is keep the major storylines, and many of the major set pieces, and turned them into TV gold…Purist book fans can either accommodate this, or stop watching

I have never met a “purest”. Everyone understands that you have to make simplifications, combinations, and cuts in order to turn 7000 pages of text into 70 hours of TV. That doesn’t imply that every choice D&D make should be free of criticism.

Up to this season, the changes have been pretty minor. It is clear that S5 is a whole different beast, with entire multi-chapter story threads and POVs cut. Maybe they will still make some good TV this way, but they aren’t just drifting away from the text, they are lurching away. What affect on quality this has remains to be seen.

I’m gonna have to agree with all who say “Good riddance” to the LSH plotline. It’s just not necessary and it undermines the tragedy of the Red Wedding if she comes back. That last “swan song” moment from Michelle Fairley was the perfect way for her to leave the show, and the perfect tragic way to end Catelyn’s story. Don’t throw that away just to see some zombie revenge.

GRRM is great. The books are great. But not EVERYTHING in them is great. I’d rather see D&D make intelligent story decisions that work for the show, rather than just be slavish to the books and include even the stuff that wasn’t all that great.

I loved the Red Wedding as a bold move in storytelling. It was bold specifically because these characters were killed and their storyline, which seemed so important and hopeful… was abutly cut off. Bringing any of those characters back, in any way… just ruins that finality. When I first found out that Catelyn came back in the books, I was actually disappointed. Sure, I thought it was kinda cool in a way, and I could see it visually working on the show… But the more I thought about it, the more I wished George had just let sleeping Starks lie.

If the show is doing what it looks like they’re doing (turning Sansa into LSH instead), then that’s WAY better!

GOD DAMN IT! I clicked your link about Fairley’s knowledge and got a major spoiler about other characters! I thought I was safe since it was before the jump! Since that was in your pre-spoiler section, you should have just linked to the newsarticles that blog post references which just support the stated claim.

I’m gonna have to agree with all who say “Good riddance” to the LSH plotline. It’s just not necessary and it undermines the tragedy of the Red Wedding if she comes back. That last “swan song” moment from Michelle Fairley was the perfect way for her to leave the show, and the perfect tragic way to end Catelyn’s story. Don’t throw that away just to see some zombie revenge.

GRRM is great. The books are great. But not EVERYTHING in them is great. I’d rather see D&D make intelligent story decisions that work for the show, rather than just be slavish to the books and include even the stuff that wasn’t all that great.

I loved the Red Wedding as a bold move in storytelling. It was bold specifically because these characters were killed and their storyline, which seemed so important and hopeful… was abutly cut off. Bringing any of those characters back, in any way… just ruins that finality. When I first found out that Catelyn came back in the books, I was actually disappointed. Sure, I thought it was kinda cool in a way, and I could see it visually working on the show… But the more I thought about it, the more I wished George had just let sleeping Starks lie.

If the show is doing what it looks like they’re doing (turning Sansa into LSH instead), then that’s WAY better!

Lady Stoneheart only heightens the tragedy of House Stark for me personally. Certainly, Catelyn’s corpse is resurrected and I

guess you can take that at face value and say that it’s bringing her character back to life and ruining the finality of her death, but I don’t agree with that interpretation. The character that comes back at the end of A Storm of Swords isn’t Catelyn Stark — it’s Lady Stoneheart. Catelyn Stark is a woman that fought against the continued wars and the cycle of revenge, who didn’t want to take vengeance on anyone because vengeance couldn’t bring her husband back, couldn’t give her son his legs back, and couldn’t bring her daughters home.

To me, the prospect of being warped into some kind of creature that doesn’t even share my values after death is a pretty horrifying prospect and that’s exactly what happens with Stoneheart.

I’m not necessarily arguing that Lady Stoneheart is right for TV, but I think looking at her resurrection as lessening the tragedy of the Red Wedding is probably the wrong move.

D&D just don’t want to face the fact that they messed up bigtime by not including Lady Stoneheart! Maybe not sticking to the books wasn’t such a great idea after all! Whiny Book Purist Unite!

I know her character is not touched upon much even in the books, but the fact that GRRM actually decided to resurrect Catelyn Stark as Lady Stoneheart tells me he has some plans for her in the endgame. He can come up with new characters at the drop of a hat, so why re-introduce an old character who was dead anyway? Unless he has some proper closure for her in the end, I think he wouldnt bother wasting valuable pages on her. It would be nice to see her on screen, but I am not going to get my hopes up this time, only to be disappointed again.

According to a similar thread on WOTW, reports are that people who have seen episode 2 are apparently claiming Brinenne & Pod hear some torture/execution/screaming type activity coming from the woods which may indicate the presence of LS and that her story is intact.

Personally, I think it would be infinitely creepier to have them discover a hanging Frey corpse with salt stuffed into its mouth, but hey …

And since when do hanging people scream? Not often.

Ah well. The hopeless vigil for old crone Stoners begins again, as predicted.

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