Racist?

ThePrincesTale Lol yeah go those graffiti artists!

Dragonclaws Well, I can see some value in the idea that there should be some restrictions so criminals can be kept out, but among the people wanting tight immigration laws there are a lot of racists. Certainly the people who describe illegal immigration as "invasion" aren't thinking about people as individuals. I personally think that though there is some value in restrictions, the whole system of legal immigration is flawed and it would do more good in general to just scrap the whole thing and let everyone in.

2Dfan The real racism is that many people who have lived in America for many generations are still thought of as "immigrants" because of skin color, whereas a real immigrant fresh off the boat from Russia is assumed to be American.

DarkCEpitome ^That's so true. I bet if I came to America around the same time someone from Ireland had, I'd receive more immense prejudice and discrimination from other citizens of the United States. Because while the Irish lad will likely fit right in with society, I, on the contrary, with my well-evident African American, Syrian, and even Native American heritages may get some heat from the opinionated conservatives. Kudos to the immigrants who "don't look it", I must say. =/ Chances are, they do get it easier than those who are of color.

zanhar1 I don't think it's racist at all. Do you know how many illegal immigrants there are in the U.S? I'm more than okay with [i] legal[/i] immigrants of all races, it's the illegal ones stealing jobs and what not. I have been in a car accident involving an illegal immigrant. Because of this he was uninsured and we were stuck paying off everything. There's a difference between racism and keeping things in control.

blackpanther666 I agree with Zanhar... Obviously limits would be needed to keep too many illegal immigrants out... It's not racist, because the Americans aren't exactly choosing to keep only Mexicans out - Mexico borders the USA, so it's not like the Border Control can choose who they want to keep out race-wise, there's probably generally only one race trying to get through the border (though, that isn't concrete set, either... I'm simply meaning in general - I'm sure others from different races may come through there as well, maybe not as regularly as Mexicans, though). Either way, it isn't racist - The graffiti artist is just too immature too understand.

zanhar1 ^ Well said.

blackpanther666 ^ Thank you :)

Cinders The advertisement from the conservatives is not racist. It's classist. And I'll tell you why. "I'm more than okay with legal immigrants of all races, it's the illegal ones stealing jobs and what not." This in itself, while not racist, is (in my opinion) an ignorant statement - no offense meant to you, zanhar1, who I know is intelligent and reasonable. And because you are a reasonable, intelligent person, and I know you like to learn, allow me to explain why. 1) Legal immigration, as simple as it may seem to you, is incredibly difficult and demanding. One of the requirements a person needs in order to legally immigrate to the United States is a skill set. This makes sense from an American perspective. If we are going to accept new people into our country, we want people who can contribute to society - doctors, educators, scholars, lawyers. We don't want people who will be - as we see it from our perspective - a further drain on our already spread-thin society and welfare system. This is not an unreasonable demand to make of our immigrants, but keep in mind that the majority of people who want to come to the United States are not highly educated, though not for lack of trying. Many WANT to be highly educated, and hope to take advantage of our free school systems. Some apply for student visas with this reason, but student visas are also restricted. Some student visas are even restricted by country, which means we won't allow anyone from that country no matter how qualified. It's nice to think that this is for homeland security reasons - like not allowing anyone from Iraq. But more it's political and diplomatic reasons, the same arbitrary bullshit that requires you to have a visa to visit Brazil and a Canadian doesn't - a retaliatory act the Brazilians put n place when we visa'd them out first. Keep in mind that the simple fact of requiring highly skilled individuals already excludes a majority of people from developing nations, which means these visas and even citizenship is often awarded to Europeans, Australians and Canadians who want to immigrate for a specific job, romantic relationship, or simply on a whim or a preference. If you, for example, as an American wanted to immigrate to, let's say Sweden, or Singapore, or maybe you don't want to learn a new language so you want to immigrate to the UK. Odds are, it would be easy as pie. For middle class citizens of developed (or so called first-world) nations, emigration and immigration is a breeze. 2. Because legal immigration is incredibly restrictive and difficult, most illegals are from undeveloped countries, and are from the lower class It's the impoverished who end up as the illegals. The father who just wants to go to a developed nation to earn enough money to send back to his family as remittances. The family who fled their home to escape persecution, but cannot get asylum because the nation they fled to doesn't see their nation's problem as a legitimate asylum case. The girl who was sent to a developed nation by herself with the hope that she will get a better life there - the girl who probably didn't want to go there in the first place, and would have rather stayed with her family. The woman, who trekked from Guatemala through Central America, having to sell her body, or sometimes allow her body to be stolen just to get across the border. So you see, it's never the foreigners of means who end up as illegals, and it's rare for a foreigner without means to obtain an illegal visa. I live in a country which has good relations with the United States. It's strategically placed in a volatile region, an excellent ally and access point for the United States should things in this region escalate to require American intervention. Because of this, the US wants to make the people here like America as much as America likes having them for an ally. So they offer something called a DV lottery - a diplomatic visa lottery. Anyone can sign up, but only a small amount actually ever win the visa. Still, winning a DV here is literally like hitting the jackpot in America. Families are proud to say, "Oh, this is a photo of my son. He used to live with is, but now he got a DV and is in America! Isn't he smart?" The truth is, ma'am, no, your son is not smart (well, maybe he is, but not because he's in America). He's lucky. That's it. There are plenty of other candidates who are equally as smart that didn't win the lottery. Still, I'm happy for you and your family, that your son was lucky enough to win. Some people wait years, decades on a DV visa that never comes. 3. The jobs illegals are 'stealing' aren't jobs you'd want to do anyway. I don't know if you remember, but last year Alabama severely tightened its policy on immigration, leading to the deportation of hundreds of illegals, and put the fear of God into the farmers who used to employ them. Do you know what the result was? Not more jobs for native-born (ha, "native") Americans. No, what it resulted in was a disaster to the agricultural industry for the state. The depletion of the labor force - and the lack of any native-born Americans willing to fill those jobs - meant that Alabama was forced to import African immigrants to fill those jobs. Yes, that actually happened. Kicking out all the illegal (mostly Hispanic) immigrants working in the farms and slaughterhouses just resulted in a loss of labor, which forced them to fill it by bringing in MORE IMMIGRANTS. It got so bad that farmers rallied and heavily criticized the policy, blaming it for losses of up to billions of dollars. What jobs to illegals have, mostly? Gardeners? Seasonal laborers? Hotel maids? What are the jobs you aim to have? I'd like to see a Venn Diagram to see the crossover there. The argument could be made that the impoverished illegals who have no other options but to take these jobs are still taking them away from impoverished Americans, but if that were the case, then why did Alabama have such a had time finding local Americans willing to work in their farms? Many impoverished white folks also take low-skill jobs, but theirs is mostly in the service industry. Temp jobs through an agency that they know how to navigate or wait staff and other jobs that require good English skills. So the jobs these illegals are apparently "stealing" are actually difficult to fill with red-blooded, homegrown American workers. Conclusion Dragonclaws made an excellent point when she said there is some value to immigration restrictions, mostly for homeland security reasons. And there's some rationality to wanting to admit only the best and brightest into our nation. However, being born American is a matter of chance, as much as winning the DV lottery, or winning the actual lottery is a matter of chance. We were lucky enough to be born in this country, and there are no prerequisites for us to be American. We don't have to know American history or politics or laws if we don't want to. We don't even have to be a contributing member of society, highly educated, or highly skilled. It's chance that we have that luxury. Other people don't. And just because they aren't highly educated or highly skilled doesn't mean they don't wish that they were. It doesn't mean they don't work hard. It doesn't mean they are any less than anyone else. And I think that's the important thing to remember.

zanhar1 Wow that was very informative. Thank you. I've only been told the very basics of immigration. And most of what I heard wasn't exactly pro-immigration.

Cinders The truth is, immigration is a hugely polarizing issue, but it's also a hugely complex issue. If you are interested in learning more about the life of an illegal immigrant, I highly recommend the film "De Nadie (No one)" by Mexican filmmaker Tin Dirdamal. It's a documentary on the impoverished Central Americans who leave their countries in hope of a better life in the United States, and all the insanity and chaos they have to endure just to get there, only to be blamed, scapegoated and spat upon and possibly deported. I'm not it's an easy issue, or because immigrants have such a hard life we should let everyone who wants to be American be American. We can't save everyone in the world, and the United States cannot single-handedly support every person in poverty. The real key to battling illegal immigration is to develop these nations so that their people don't feel like they need to leave the country in order to gain a better life. These people need to believe that they can make enough money in their own country to support their family. These nations need to learn how to support their own people. Those who go to America on student visas should come back and contribute to their homeland with what they learned in the USA. The thing is, we can't make people go back. Weirdly enough, it's one reason I got into development work in the first place, was to help the immigration problem. EDIT: If the link above doesn't work, try this one.