"You misjudge us if you think wed be gleeful because you left"
"Personally, Im full of glee"
Okayyyy.... so I was... wrong? Right? Confused?!

The reason people are asking you to leave is because you aren't explaining your answers in detail with logical explanations. I suggest you leave, because you're not doing any good for yourself, and BTW I won't be jumping for glee if/when you leave. Go back to the Christianity spot where you belong, and stop trying to force your beliefs down our throats.

BTW because I don't believe in Jesus it makes my good deeds worthless? Do you realise how many people you offended. You offended Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics and many others, don't stay stuff like that because it isn't true. My good deeds are good, if I save someone's life does not believing in Jesus make that worthless? Would that person not be grateful?

Also you do realise that people who do believe in Jesus do bad things? Take Hitler for example.

Not that I'm contradicting your point, but Hitler wasn't a Christian. He was into some crazy stuff, and childhood and adult acquaintances reported that if he was a Catholic, he was not a practicing one. Obviously, he used religion as a tool to gain power and control over a primarily Christian nation and played the politics game in the public eye. However, there were many instances in which Hitler privately exhibited his anti-Christian sentiment. Here are some of those instances taken from the book "Hitler's Table Talk" recorded with Hitler's consent to be used as source material for future books that Hitler planned to write:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

21st October, 1941, midday
"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)

14th December, 1941, midday
"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner
"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)

^^ But Hitler believed in something?? He HATED atheists, his reaction to them was terrible, he couldn't understand why they didn't believe in a deity and were locked away and treated like crap, like the Jews, Gypsies and others.

Right, and I'm not saying he was an atheist, and he locked away/murdered plenty of Christians too. Obviously, no one wants that guy on their team, and it's a bit counterproductive to try to assign him to one, especially given his character and motivation. He was a murderous narcissist who believed himself to be of great importance and destiny in shaping/ruling a world comprised of one "master" race- a delusional fanatic. Perhaps we can just leave it at that.

Maybe he thought he was God. I won't deny that Stalin was an atheist though. Because he apparently was.

I can answer why God gets upset when people don't believe him. He hates seeing his creation destroy itself. Also, God is jealous. He doesn't want us..til next time

^ So, God thinks that non-believers are destroying their own souls... So that brings us back to the question of why God would give us free will if he didn't want us to use it, which brings us back to the same impass we were at before...

Isn't jealousy a sin? Again, we come back to the idea that God can sin, but humans can't...

I can help answer some questions. Ninja your question was "If he is all powerful and all knowing, why is he so petty about not being believed in?". My answer to that is he's very jealous as it states in the Ten Commandments. Also, since the alternative of going to Heaven is Hell, it saddens him to see things he created choose to go to Hell. Yes it is a choice.

Caramel your question (and statement)was " Is that part of god's plan? Maybe homosexuality is intended after all." I don't think homoexuality is his plan. However, that doesn't mean he can't take something bad and use it for good. That doesn't mean he do bad
things. He just uses it to make it good.

I'm not a homophobe by the way. Even though I don't agree with something doesn't mean I have to or can shun others. The same thing with religion or non religion. I will love unconditionally. My job isn't to covert others, just plant a seed. I want ot stand out. If the world isn't talking about me, then I haven't planted that seed.

God is a man, Ninja, because men are the head of the household. They are usually stronger(not that women aren't strong). It is the guys job to take care of the family. Women tend to be more emotional than guys about things so if the family is in trouble the man can handle it. I will get you a better answer if I can find one.

We would be a bunch of mindless robots, anthrope, if God didn't give us free will. We wouldn't be able to choose to enjoy the every day things, like a sunset,sunrise, the awesome smell of steak cooking, the beauty of roses, and the beauty of looking over the edge of a mountain and seeing the massive trees look so tiny. We would miss out on the beauty of life and everything in it.

^
-Why is God jealous? "Because the bible says so" is not an explaination, its a lack of one. I know why I think the bible says that God is jealous, but I am interested to know what you think about God's motivation to be jealous, especially when he also deems jealousy in humans to be sinful. Is it a "Do as I say, not as I do" kind of thing?

- From an Atheist's perspective, there is no hell or heaven, so for Atheists it is not a choice between heaven and hell at all. By another religion's perspective, Christians are also going to hell. Christians have chosen to go to hell. In the end, we have all "chosen" to go to "hell", one way or another. So that doesn't tell me why God is jealous.

- Lets say, for arguments sake, that homosexuality is "bad", what can God do with it to make it "good"? Does he do this with other things that he hates (ie adultery/alcoholism/atheists etc)? If God can make "good" with "bad" things, why does he tell us we are going to hell for doing/being those "bad" things?

- The seed thing has always amused me. Personally, the more I learn of religion, the more I am sure my Atheism is justified and is right for me. What if the "seed" that you "plant" is an Atheist seed?

- Ok, I'm gonna try not to fly off the rails here, but God is a man because men are the head of a household?! *shudders* Who says that men are head of the household? God? And God is man? Total coincidence, right? You are gonna believe what you are gonna believe, and that is your right. But I have the right to my beliefs, and I believe that this attitude is harmful not just to women, but to all of society, and, quite frankly, I can't believe that people genuinely believe such a thing. I makes me sad and angry.

- Mindless robots? That doesn't answer my question. Like I said, we are gonna go in circles here. God gave us free will, but gets mad and vengeful at those who use it to follow beliefs that are at odds with a set of rules he doesn't follow himself. God cannot expect people to use free will to form an opinion about a sunrise, but not use free will to form an opinion about the nature of the universe.

I plan to be the head of my family when I'm an adult. Just to piss off your God.

And honestly, why IS he so jealous? It's like a child with a toy. "GIMME IT BACK!"

Well he created us and wants a relationship like he had in the beginnig. He could walk and talk with his creation. They could see him. He could walk and talk with us but since there's so much sin in this world He can't stand it.

And that just leads us back to the question of why he gave us the free will to sin. Circular...

To truly believe in something is to believe something without seeing. That is truly believing. Ok, how come everyone believes wind exists? You can only see the effects of it. You cannot see it by itself, you cannot smell it, taste it. All you can do is feel it, but you can actually feel God's presence around you. Right now he stands next to you as you read this. You can feel his love and, when you ask him into your life, his peace. Anthrope would you like to live you life a mindless robot? Or would you like to enjoy a sunset, the snow on the tips of the mountains, a little baby smile, a little kid getting so excited when he or she gets to go get icecream. How about when a mother gets to comfort a child, or when a little child gets a puppy for the first time?

God is next to me right now? ... God is creepy.

I don't feel God, but I do feel wind, and I see the effects of wind. That is how I know it exists. I don't feel God, and I don't see any effects that indicate that he exists, therefore I do not believe he exists. Point is, you believe in God, so you "feel" him. I don't believe he exists, so I don't feel him. But we both feel and see the effects of the wind.

Again, you haven't addressed the issues that I raised. No, I do not choose to live like a mindless robot, which is why I keep my life religion-free. What I want to know is why God gave us free-will, BUT he dislikes it when we use it to explore our world. God gave us the ability to think for ourselves and, as you put it, "enjoy a sunset", but gets pissed off when we reject him/love someone of the same sex/swear/get drunk. So the question remains: why does God get angry at us when we exercise the free will that he wants us to use?

We can drink but not get drunk. Thats only because we arent in the right mind set and usually cant think straight. Btw many people who didnt believe in God have seen the effects of him. I cant get into detail about how science proves God, but I have it one the science club somewhere for those interestes in it. He wants us to have free will,yes, but he wants us to use it for his glory. Lets say your a parent if you arent right now. Your child is born and instantly does everything against you, totally rejects you. You try to have a relationship with the child but you get a smack in the face instead. How would that make you feel? Thats he feels.

So God wants us to use our free will to choose to follow him, therefore cancelling out 99% of the free will he gives us? Its all just one big manipulation?

If my child truely rejected me, I would look at the situation, and try to fix it (ie by looking at myself and my child). Taking action to fix or improve the situation is key. I wouldn't wait and hope that my child chooses to accept me. Sitting back and doing nothing but sulk isn't going to help anything, so why does God sit back and do nothing, instead of taking action to ensure that his "children" love him the way you believe he loves them?

God doesn't just sit back and do nothing, trust me on that. He shows us what he wants. He shows us the truth, if we choose to accept it he's happy. Never underestimate God. Drug addics have, many others have and it didn' work out for them. He looks at our situation and when we realize we need him he's there. However he is no magic genie to just ask and its granted. Believe in him first whole heartedly.

I've never seen God do anything. I've never been shown any God-like "truth". The truth that I have seen leads me to believe that there are no deities.

So I have to believe in him first, without any evidence, and then I will get to see him?

I tell you the truth, this truth. God made the universe and everything in it. He made the first humans. They had a perfect life. That is until Eve was tempted with the forbidden fruit. That was the first sin and they tried to hide from God. They ended up getting kicked out of their paradise. For many years God only talked to the priest. Everyone handed their prayers to the priest. Then the priest would pay. God wanted more, so he sent his only son to be born of a virgin. He would perform miracles but would die a brutal death so we could be forgiven of all our wrongings. He's the only bridge to Heaven and to a relationship with God. All you have to do is belive and ask for forgiveness of the wrong things you do and mean it with your whole heart. You ask God to rule your life, and you will find greatness. He doesn't show himself physically. Just what he wants and what others need. He wants you to know that he loves you and wants a father child relationship. His Son died for you so that you would have the choice to go to Heaven.

If there was a sale at your favorite store, for 75% off would you not buy your friends things too? How about 90%? Then why wouldn't you accept something 100% free? You are not too undeserving to ask forgiveness, you are beatifully and wonderfully made. You can give all your worries to him. All your hope, fears, dreams, and your future can be given to God.

That is your truth, not mine.

You may believe all that stuff you said, but it has nothing to do with my, or lives of billions of other people.

And you haven't answered my question.

Hi, all. I saw this conversation going on, and figured I'd throw in my 2 cents.

The word "jealous" from the Bible can also be translated as "zealous" as in "God zealously protects that which is precious to Him". However, the word jealous is not necessarily an incorrect translation/representation of the way that Christians view God as regarding his people, as jealousy does not have to be sinful.

A good example might be the relationship between a husband and wife- if the wife is in search of other lovers, or if another man is trying to undermine their marriage and seduce the wife, the husband has every right to feel a sense of jealousy and to try to preserve and protect that which is sacred to him. It would be considered a righteous, not selfish behavior. This is the intended representation God’s “jealousy”.

There is a sinful application of jealousy as well, such as if a husband feels anger and resentment just because he sees his wife talking to another man, but this is based off of insecurity and self-centered possessiveness and can be considered a type of sin. God isn’t a petty being, angered by us admiring an artist’s statue or painting, by reading a fiction novel instead of the Bible, by listening to music that doesn’t have Christian lyrics, by consuming alcohol on a special occasion or simply to unwind after a long day at work, by the joy we feel at the raise that our boss gave us at work, or by using a swear word (excluding the usage of the Lord’s name in vain) if we feel the need to manifest an emotion into words (swear words themselves aren’t "wrong" except in a cultural/societal sense- it’s the context and intent behind the implementation of a swear word that could be construed as sinful). God is only jealous when these actions/behaviors begin to detract from our relationship with Him, or when we essentially replace Him with them.

God doesn't blatantly reveal Himself to us just to get us to believe in Him- even realistically, it’s beneath the creator to have to answer to His creation and appeal to it to acknowledge His existence. Christianity tells us that it’s we who need God, not the other way around, although He loves us dearly. The importance of faith is addressed in the Bible and in Christ’s teachings. There just isn’t irrefutable proof to establish God’s existence- at least that which can be presented by any man. I know that God does perform miracles which can be seen by those who know to look for them. But He will not perform them in order to "persuade" or otherwise coerce you into believing in Him (this is why a Christian's testimony as a witness is such an important tool, to be able to hear about God's unseen hand in the miraculous). If God felt it necessary to physically reveal Himself to every person in order for us to believe, wouldn't that be a larger manipulation of our free will? Love is a two-way street, and it's what God had in mind when He created us- he wanted to love us and for us to love Him. Anyone who has ever been in a relationship can attest to the fact that love freely given is so much more wonderful than any love that can be "forced" (which is not love at all). So it's easy to understand why God gave us a choice. Besides, if God were required to prove himself to us routinely (which has never been a part of His covenant with us), it would completely nullify/cheapen the purpose of faith, which means a great deal more to God and is really a much more powerful testament to God’s power than sight would be- which is the way He wants it. There might be enough personal truth to convince an individual, but not society as a whole. A skeptical mind will most likely still be found to be skeptical.

Maybe you look at some of the death and suffering that goes on and say "if there were a God, how could he allow this?". The truth is that God doesn't cause all bad things to happen, He actually works to an extent to prevent these things. Yes, the world is not the Garden of Eden that man was originally intended to dwell and enjoy God's presence in. The fact that we must experience death once before we are able to experience a life at God's table is merely a result of our original capacity
to sin. Maybe without Lucifer's original coaxing, we would never have known death. Regardless, we have to go through death as a means of atonement.
We are mortal. Therefore suffering is unavoidable in this life, even if God never wished it upon us. However, He can and does use difficult times and events in our lives as a means to help us or others around us to grow. It's not that God throws tests at us to know the depth of our faith, or our capabilities- He already knows these things. He knows us better than we know ourselves, down to the number of hairs on our heads. He allows us to be tested so that WE can know the depth of our faith and our own limits.

Personal testimony and evidence are really all that can be offered by a Christian when they are charged with the burden of proof of God’s existence by a non-believer. Many of the other specific questions about Christianity and how Christ taught us to live are answered in their own time and as a person develops in their faith. If a person wants to change, they will. If one doesn’t believe in God and doesn’t want to, then (quite simply) they won’t unless something happens to change their mind somewhere down the road. If you're looking for God, He has promised that you will find Him. Otherwise, it's all up to Him to reveal Himself to you in His own time. In the end, an unbeliever’s belief/disbelief in God is ultimately between God and themselves.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go off on a rant/preach, but when it comes down to this kind of stuff, I think that clarity and elaboration is very necessary to make a complete point. To quote Dostoyevsky:

“Much unhappiness has come into the world because of bewilderment and things left unsaid.”

- So God's "jealousy" is justified, and justified jealousy is not a sin? Can that be applied to other sins like lust? Because lust is justifiable, for sure.

"I know that God does perform miracles which can be seen by those who know to look for them."
- For me, that is part of the problem. When we go looking for things, we often find them. Scientists who perform their experiments in a biased manner will find results that confirm their hypotheses. The point is not whether or not miracles are real. The point is that they are real for you. You are neither right nor wrong, and I am neither right nor wrong. You have faith that miracles happen. I have faith that they don't.

"If God felt it necessary to physically reveal Himself to every person in order for us to believe, wouldn't that be a larger manipulation of our free will?"
- Aha! You anticipated my next move. I like it! This is the circular argument that I have been referring to.

- Funny thing about my interactions with Christians in this club is that the notion of "proof" is often brought up by the Christian party. With a little help from the never-endingly wise Cinders, I have adopted the idea that neither Christians nor Atheists should be required to provide proof of what they [b]believe[/i] in. I believe in parallel universes, but I can't prove it with factual evidence. This isn't about proving God's existance to me or anyone else. Its about understanding a system of belief, and questioning that system of belief.

- So, you believe that we are born bad (original sin)?

- When I said that my "truth" has shown me that God doesn't exist, I wasn't referring to suffering. I was referring to everything (good, bad and indifferent) in my world. Nothing about the world suggests to me that some grand designer made it all. People suffer because shit happens. Bad people do bad things. Good people do bad things. Bad people do good things. There is no such thing as a good or a bad person. Atheism, for me, isn't disillusionment with a God; its faith in my part in a natural world.

"In the end, an unbeliever’s belief/disbelief in God is ultimately between God and themselves."
- For you, sure. But not for me. And that is the point that I think really needs to be driven home.

Thanks again for your responses 2nd2lastsamurai! You always go to great lengths to explain, rather than just describe, your belief system. You are a great representative of yourself and your religion.

Anthrope I have finally found the answer to your jealousy question. Your question was,"Isn't jealousy a sin? Again, we come back to the idea that God can sin, but humans can't..." Here's my answer, jealousy is not a sin. In the Ten Commandments, it does say he is jealous. The 10th commandment states that we should not be envious. The difference between jealousy and envious is evious is wanting something something that is someone else's. Jealousy is wanting something that is yours. God made us therefore we are his. Lastsamurai, I couldn't agree more. I personally don't mind if you rant. It gives me new ways to look at things.

Oh and yes Anthrope, we are born into sin. I agree that lastsamurai is a great rep.

So only the stuff mentioned in the 10 Commandments is a sin? But the stuff through the rest of the bible is not sin, even though it is treated by God as sin?
Also, why is envy worse than jealousy? That seems a little convenient for God, doesn't it?

If we run with your definition of envy, God still sins. Isn't God is 'envious' of other gods? The Christian God wants the followers of other gods to follow him, right?

Yes, I believe that the “jealousy” that God describes himself as having is justifiable in terms of love and relationships with His people in the sense that He wants to protect that which is His and is dear to Him. There is the sinful type of jealousy (considered to be petty), and as gir5136 has pointed out there is also the sin of envy which carries a different meaning. Envy is wanting what is not rightfully yours, or displaying malice that someone has something that you want- in terms of marital relationships, it could be coveting another man’s wife. Regarding our faith as Christians, we know that there is only one true God and that everything that we have and are is really His. God tells us that to allow other things to take His rightful place in terms of priority within our lives is wrong and He is a jealous God. By saying this, He means that He has feelings too; he is entitled to, can, and does feel love, hurt, betrayal, joy and pain just like any of us. The difference between a man and God is that God’s mercy is as limitless as His love, so He will always welcome us back no matter what we do to Him.

This is not akin to jealousy in the superficial sense as in God becoming jealous because we admired a sunset. On the contrary, God made this world for us to enjoy and be a steward of, like an artist who made a beautiful painting that He would like others to be able to enjoy and benefit from. The art is not possible without the artist, however, so God does feel hurt when we try to substitute Him in our lives. In the example of a marriage, the husband who is indifferent to another man’s attempts at seducing his wife or at his wife seeking out a new lover is not a husband who loves and cherishes his wife- he’s a man who does not care. How could a loving God not feel jealous when we commit the equivalent of spiritual adultery against Him?

In what sense would you regard lust as justifiable?

In response to your original sin question, I don’t believe that humans are born “bad”. Children are born innocent and aren’t capable of sin until they reach a certain age of maturity and cognition in which they develop a concept of what is right and wrong (conscience). I would consider a person to be sinful once they are able to distinguish between a right action and a wrong action and knowingly select the wrong one. As we mature, however, we find that sin is inevitable. The best that we can do is guard ourselves against it and raise our children to do the same by learning about how Christ lived. I guess I’m not really certain what this question entails, so I apologize if I misconstrued it.

You’re right in citing faith as the basis for both our beliefs in matters such as miracles at God’s hand, and also right in citing the existence of circular arguments. I might say “if you have faith, you will see God”. You might respond by saying “if I see God, I might have faith”, although I understand that your personal truths have lead you to believe in the nonexistence of God. At this point, it’s my opinion that we’ve reached a certain level of understanding and perhaps the next thing that we can do is talk about our specific experiences with what we regard as personal truth. My perspective from all that I have seen and learned as a Christian is that God is truth. I believe that if you seek the truth in earnest, you will find God on the way, no matter what path you take. The specific beliefs of Christianity (homosexuality, abortion, sin, the origins of the universe, is God jealous?, etc.) are almost peripheral matters next to the main one. The real question (for you) is whether or not God actually does exist. I’d like to discuss what personal truths you do believe in, and I would also like to share my own. It’s possible that it might be easier to do this over personal messages, if you are inclined.

I understand that you weren’t referring to the world’s suffering in mentioning the truth that you believe in, that was just me going off on a tangent, sorry. =) Also, me stating that an unbeliever’s relationship with God is between them and God was only intended as coming from an already Christian perspective- I understand that that would hold no meaning for someone who does not believe in God. I apologize if it seemed presumptuous or dismissive toward your beliefs.

Thanks Missy, and thank you Gir5136 ;D. Likewise, it’s always good to discuss these things with you as you always bring up good points- you’re eloquent and thorough when you make them, and you do it in a very respectful manner, it’s very appreciated.

Your welcome 2nd2lastsamurai. When I said we are born into sin, I meant born into a sinful world. Thank you for your imput and putting everything into percpective. I am still a baby Christian so I accidently word things different then intentions.

Baby Christian?

D'aaaawww that's so cute!

It's fine gir, it's inevitable especially in communicating through text. We all start out as infants in our faith, I'm a work in progress too! In fact, I spent quite a long time as a virtual newborn. But even realizing that there is room for growth puts us on the right track! =)

Thanks Samurai. I know we start out as infants, I was born in a church. I appeciate the words of wisdom(as I see it.) Other people's negative words cannot affect me. Even if they did I would quickly forgive. Thank you for looking out for me. I really do appreciate it.

Why does God let us doubt his existence? Why doesn't he just prove he's there?

Because then faith wouldn't be faith it would be just seeing what's there. He wants us to trust him.

I guess, given our different worldviews, your justifications for God's jealousy/envy make sense within your context. I don't share that context, but I can see how the Christian context may lead down that thought process. Nicely done.

Justifiable Lust. Good band name. Lust is normal human behaviour. Its biological. Even if you don't believe that it is in our DNA (ie from an evolutionary perspective), lust is driven by biology. Without lust, the population wouldn't what it is today. Without lust, we would not have made the scientific or social advances that we have made. If we didn't put earthly things above God, such as sex, money, food etc, the human race would have died out long, long ago. So lust is justifiable in the sense that the survival of the species is somewhat dependent upon it.

I was just clarifying your position of original sin. Some people define original sin as every soul being born "corrupt" or "bad" and each soul has to spend its life on earth working towards becoming "good" by following the bible. Others define original sin like you have, so you answered my question just fine!

Just as your life has given you faith in God, my life has taught me that humans are firmly at the heart of existence. To me, the social and political history of the world tells a story that is much, much more complex than the idea of supernatural intervention (or non-intervention as the case may be). I think the existence that we know is much, much bigger than any god, and it totally beyond our understanding. But what I do know is that when I live my life here on this earth right now, I can live a life that will mean something to me and to others around me. I believe that that is the right thing to do because of the social bonds that I have in my life.

I don't if any god exists. I would, however, bet a million dollars that the Christian god doesn't exist. People believing in deities is not offensive. Its normal, and its natural. The issue I have with "gods", is that organised religions believe that their god is the one true god (or maybe they hav multiple gods etc) for everyone. I think that the plethora of religions is proof enough for me that every religion is incorrect, in the grand scheme. Those religions will be right for individuals. I will never know if there is any deity who created this world. I can't know that. I believe there are better theories as to how the universe came to be and functions. And that works for me. I don't mind not "knowing" because I know that I can't know.

gir5136 had also suggested the suffering thing, and it just reminded me of the "all atheists are mad at God" thing that I hear all the time. I think Atheists are gulity of pointing out that suffering and pain are evidence that no gods exist (which is a valid argument to some extent, and if argued well), but Atheists see beautiful things in the world as evidence of no gods too. Nature is wonderous on its own, and adding a god into the mix seems disrespectful to the complexity of nature.
Wow, I'm a hippy.

Hmmm..... I think that Atheists spend so much time trying to prove that there isn't a God. I wonder what everyone would do if God revealed himself. Would they stand there in disbelief, continuosly denying him, or they would actually believe. However when that day comes it'll be to late for a lot of people. Pain and suffering is what builds character. If I hadn't gone through what I have gone through, I would not have a forgiving heart today. I can and I have forgiven someone who didnt deserve my forgiveness. If nature was good on it's own what explains the start of it? How did it get to such beauty on it's own? The complexity of nature has to have a matermind behind it. Think of it like a historical painting. The beauty of the masterpiece had to have been painted by someone. The painting couldn't grow arms and paint itself.

Just to be clear, being good isn't going to get you to Heaven.

I don't know what to say to the comment about lust being the reason the human race is still around. However lust is also what's causing the world to over populate and slowly starve. This again goes back to God letting us make our decisions. Someone around here was going to ask," Why does God let us starve?" He doesn't He gives us more than what we need. If we Americans weren't so greedy (which we all are) we would share food with starving countries so the human race doesn't go down the toilet. Oh and on top of that, the pollution is killing this planet people. (btw no rudeness or bashing on other religions was not intended and I'm sorry if it sounded like it.)

I believe in God. However my small human mind can't possibly begin to grasp everything about God. I don't know all the answers, though if I don't know something I'll tell you I'll get back to you and I will. I can't see in the future, if I could I wouldn't do some things.

"I think that Atheists spend so much time trying to prove that there isn't a God."
- Because we are forced to. When I tell people I don't believe in deities, I am expected to explain myself and am forced into the proof argument. I have already said that religion and Atheism alike are about faith. Neither side has to prove anything.

There is a massive difference between belief and worship. If a God revealed her/himself, I would probably believe that s/he existed (given I knew that I wasn't under the influence of drugs/mental illness etc, which I guess I could never really know anyway way...), but I would not worship her/him. I would have a buttload of questions that I would want answers for before I changed my life to incorporate religious worship.
Its interesting that religious people often say "Well what if God did show his face on earth, would you still deny him?" to Atheists, but for the millions of years that God hasn't "revealed himself" (and I mean as in saying "Hi guys, here I am!", not just in the eyes of a kitten or whatever), religious people still believe that he exists... This is why it isn't about proof, its about belief.

Of course pain and suffering makes us who we are. And I can forgive people too. But I don't believe in any god. I don't have any god helping me through and yet I get through my suffering just the same. You probably believe that god is helping us both, right? Well I believe we are both human. Personally, I'd rather attribute my strength to my social bonds than a mystical being.

I wasn't there when the world began. I can't tell you anything for sure any more than you can. Like I said, our consciousness may be generated in a lab by scientists. We might all be in the Matrix. I don't know. You don't know. So how the universe got started isn't even relevant if you don't even know what reality is comprised of.

There isn't any reason why the universe must have been started by anything but itself. If you ask that question, then you must answer the question of who started God. And we all know that God always has been and always will be and isn't governed by the laws of time and space that we are governed by etc etc. That's a god argument that I like. But my point is, there is no reason why nature has to have been set in motion by anything, just like how God didn't have to be started by anything.

I'd like to see you prove that a painting can't grow arms and paint itself. If I sit there and hope really hard that a canvas grows arms and paints itself, and it doesn't happen, does that mean it can't happen? Just like if I sit there and hope really hard that God is real and will show himself to me (giggle), and it doesn't happen, does that mean that God isn't real?

As far as I can tell, nothing gets you into heaven except the genuine belief in the Christian God or having absolutely no knowledge of the Christian God. Good and bad have nothing to do with it.

To be fair, people have been rapidly starving for long, long time. I think what you are referring to is the gap between the rich and the poor, which is certainly ever-expanding. And we can agree that the rich are (generally) greedy and that we are polluting the planet. And the "deadly sins" have a part to play. But we have balance issues. We need to balance and moderate those issues, not deny them.

This is going to sound really offensive and I'll try and say it as un-offensive-ly as possible, but thats a tough task: if we look at the rich/greedy/lustful nations, they are Christian/Catholic nations. America, Europe, Australia, New Zealand etc, places where Christianity is the dominant religion are places that share in having the most money and the most power on the world stage. I know that sounds offensive, but since you brought up America and greed etc, I felt compelled to take the argument there. Places like the USA having the money and the power and being dominated by Christianity is not a coincidence.

One of the reasons I do believe in God is that when I was in my weakest point and things kept hitting me emotionally, it was God who got me through it all. I destinctly remember this one man at a concert that God told him that God's not finished with him yet. That made me realize that God really cares. This man has been through Hell. Yet it was his faith is what kept him alive. One day his eighth grade year he woke up and found it hard to move his head. He soon realized that his chin was somehow connected to his chest. I forgot what the doctors called it but he has not met another human being with the same condition. In his twenties, he was in a car with one of his friends. They were on the highway. All the sudden this enormous tire hits them sending them flying. One woman reported that the car flew so high she couln't see it in her rearview mirror. The man lay in a hospital bed,crying. He wanted to end it all, but God stopped him, saying I'm not finished with you yet.

Here's what God has done for me. He's brought me through abandonment, family issues, loneliness, insecurity, depression, self-injury. You could probably go yeah yeah what ever. However if I had time to go through everything you might be amazed, even for you.

Even as a Christian I still have a bucket of a list full of questions as well. However, I will not follow something that I have questionable faith. Though you would rather see a sermon than hear one as everyone does, I cannot show you other than what you see on Fanpop.

I can prove that a painting cannot grow arms. A painting does not have a physical heart and lungs. Cells need oxygen to form different things.

I would never, ever dismiss your personal reasons for believing in a god. Those are your reasons and yours alone and I have no right to dismiss them at all. I can question your religious belief in order to gain understanding of it, but that doesn't mean I pass any judgement on why you believe in in your god. If you use god and religion to help you in life, then that is fine by me. I'm glad you have that. My only point here is that that is your life, and that is how you see your world. I don't use a god or religion in that way. That doesn't make either of us right or wrong. It just means that different people want and need different things and have different ways of functioning in the world.

People without religious faith also carry on their lives despite their suffering. Its good that religious faith motivates people to work through pain, but atheists also face hardship and carry on. Religion isn't the only motivator in life.

But you can't prove that a canvas needs those things in order to grow arms. A canvas might be able to grow arms without cells or hearts or lungs. Just as there are medical conditions that no one has ever seen before, there may be canvases sprouting limbs and painting themselves.

On the topic of justifiable lust- you’re right, that probably would make a good band name:

Lust as I define it would classify such a phrase as an oxymoron. I maintain (and I’m sure you’ve heard others say) that there is a definite distinction between lust and natural attraction/desire. Although you expanded the application of lust to other areas, I’ll focus first on the idea of lust in the sexual sense. First of all, sex is natural for people, as is the desire to engage in it. I won’t get into the evolutionary benefits attributed to sex (although they are pretty interesting to read), but Christians believe that God intended for us to enjoy this activity in the right context, which is through marriage to one person.

Say that you find someone who enters the room “attractive”, based on whatever criteria appeals to you (well put-together, a nice singing voice, great with kids, athletic-looking, charismatic, funny, dark hair, brown eyes, ginger beard, etc.). This is also a natural practice, and many who would have a shot at being a potential spouse/significant other usually undergo this ritual classification before being considered for the role. It’s possible for love to be established between two mutually attracted individuals after it’s decided that they’re attracted to each other without appealing to lustful intentions. God intends for us to find someone who we are attracted to and can learn to love and share life with, and He wants us to enjoy lovemaking as part of the commitment that we establish through marriage. After you learn to love someone, much of what you do is with the intent of giving and mutual sharing- ideally there is no taking, because love can only be given. At any rate, attraction to someone can but does not have to be restricted to admiring someone in the sexual sense. Christians believe that God looks favorably at a mutually attracted couple who dates with the intent of forming a lasting relationship (marriage). If the goal is to have sex, or to simply be with someone who is sexually desirable, lust is most likely the driving force.

Lust can be described as an anti-love though, in that it is generated out of selfishness, purely from the desire to please oneself, or to take pleasure from someone else. In doing so, the point is to take for yourself what isn’t yours when you want it, without regard for the other person. In the Bible, Jesus stated "Whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). Many might argue that the implied meaning of “lust” is the act of adultery being all but committed, with the only thing missing is the opportunity to do so. In the reproductive sense, I would agree with your claims attributed to lust if you were to replace the word “lust” with “natural attraction” or even “sexual affinity”. However, I believe (and you may disagree) that the word “lust” has a more specifically negative connotation in terms of sin which I do not regard as justifiable.

From the other claims that you attribute to lust, it sounds like you intend lust as a progressive means of propagating the human race through self-preservation and reproduction. I can somewhat see what you’re getting at, although I would interject that I wouldn’t regard lust as a human “trait”, let alone a trait that I would credit for the advances that man has achieved in terms of population, social development, scientific discovery, species preservation, etc. On the contrary, I regard lust as a negative, self-serving and self-destructive human “fallibility” that is actually counter to the establishment/maintenance of species survival and advancement- a form of greed. I would also articulate that we don’t need to place basic survival instincts before God in order to achieve an existence here on earth, let alone to grow or increase our understanding of the world around us. Yes, as Christians, God is supposed to take priority in our lives, but we are expected- and encouraged even- by God to work the earth to fulfill our basic needs, use the intelligence that we are gifted with in order to bring glory to God, and to be fruitful and multiply so that the species of man will grow. I believe that the human species would be immeasurably further along in developing in all of the areas that you have mentioned if lust could be removed as a human behavior altogether- I know I would, lol.

I had more to say about some other stuff that you mentioned Missy, but that’s gonna have to wait for another day, sorry! ^-^

My definition comes from the biblical definition of lust which is basically putting your desires (sexual or otherwise) above God. But obviously it comes down to individual interpretation. If my view, lust as described in the bible is near impossible for humans to avoid and is therefore its just another method of control. Clearly your definition of lust is a little more God orientated and justified, which is unsurprising, of course.

Lust is human word, but its not a human trait. Lust, as I see it, is a label for normal desire. That normal desire can lead us down good paths and bad paths, but the "lust" part is biological. Its in all animals. Its in plants. Its in everything.
The issue I take with construction with lust in the bible is that it makes people bad about things that on some level they cannot control. The "lust" isn't the problem: its what we do with the lust.

I haven't been involved in this forum, but I'm a Christian as well and I like answering questions. I think it's okay to ask more than one Christian things about God and Jesus or whatever they want to know. So please ask me anything. I won't judge or try to convert anyone to Christianity, however I will always give my honest answer and opinion on every question I am asked. I also respect someone's thoughts and opinions and I ask for mine to be respected as well.

I have this question I think is not completely off-topic and that is meant for Christians in America or just Americans.

I come from a country where the religion with the most fallowers is Catholicism (I myself have been raised to be a Catholic).
Catholics here normaly describe themselfs and anybody who exepts Christ as Christian. When they want to be more specific, they describe themselfs as Catholics.

But when I come over the term "Christian" and "Catholic" used by American (on the Internet), it almost always seems like these are two different things, and not like Catholicism is a branch of Christianity. By Christian, people mostly mean Protestant and when they talk about Catholics they often do so with disdain.

Have I got the wrong impression?/Can somebody clarify why is so?

^ That is a great question.

So... This forum died... I'll just leave this question here:

One thing that has been confusing me recently is the idea that if a foetus does have soul, and that soul is innocent and goes to heaven if aborted, why are Christians (based on the results of this pick) so against abortion? It seems that religious people dedicate their lives to preparing for entry into heaven because heaven is super-awesome, and yet there is a lot of anger about the abortion of "souls". As far as I can tell, they get a free pass into heaven without the risk of growing up and becoming Atheists, for example, who can't get into heaven. So isn't abortion, in a sense, the ultimate recruitment drive?

Sorry for not getting back. I was at camp. It was so much fun and I learned something new... Anyway the reason I'm personally against abortion is because the child never had a chance to live. God had a plan for that baby. When people choose to abort the baby, it creates bumps in the road for his plan. His plan still follows through but not in it's original outcome.

ilovereading, your question was But when I come over the term "Christian" and "Catholic" used by American (on the Internet), it almost always seems like these are two different things, and not like Catholicism is a branch of Christianity. By Christian, people mostly mean Protestant and when they talk about Catholics they often do so with disdain. Have I got the wrong impression?/Can somebody clarify why is so?

I have no idea but I will get back to you.

What if God's plan was for that "soul" to be aborted?

But... you just claimed to know that God's plan was an anti-abortion one. So you have judged that its God's plan, which is why I asked that further question. What if God leads a woman down a path towards abortion? If the option of abortion enters a woman's mind, isn't that the product of her experiences and those experiences where informed by God because he knows whats best for us? Perhaps God gave someone the idea of abortion so that they can further exercise their free will, and so that human's can make decisions for themselves. If he is a "father", doesn't he want his children to grow up and make their own decisions? Perhaps abortion is God's way of offering an alternative to "natural" foetus death because he doesn't want to interfer so directly with humans. Perhaps he's tired and of killing "innocent souls" on his own, so he's sharing the load. The point here is that "God's plan" isn't something anyone can know, so to claim that it's an anti-abortion plan is something that I find very odd and I still can't understand how anyone comes to that conclusion and then justifies it as "knowledge".

"Besides who are we to decide someone's life sentence?"
- If you deny a woman the right to choose, then you are deciding her life sentence.

One of the ten commandments says not to kill. That goes for killing babies too. Even though it is no fully developed it has a heartbeat so it is alive. There are no exceptions to this rule. When I said life sentence I was talking about a matter of life or death. No one asks a baby if they want to die. When a person who aborts a baby dies they have to answer to God as to why they killed that baby. There will be no I didn't have the financial means. You could've prayed. If everyone else would abandon you if you don't abort the baby, God always got your back. If that person didn't want the baby, give it to someone who can't have children. If the baby will have defects, give the baby a chance to live. If you cannot bare to see it suffer give the baby away. By the way why would God ever get tired??? Why would God offer abortion?? He set rules, he meant for them to go unbroken.

"Even though it is no fully developed it has a heartbeat so it is alive."
- The heart doesn't start to beat until about 4 or 5 weeks after conception.
Can I ask, have you ever killed a bug, or stepped on a blade of grass?

"There will be no I didn't have the financial means. You could've prayed. If everyone else would abandon you if you don't abort the baby, God always got your back."
- Prayer doesn't buy baby food or diapers or rent or anything for that matter. God doesn't baby-sit while you're at work.

"By the way why would God ever get tired??? Why would God offer abortion?? He set rules, he meant for them to go unbroken."
- Again, you can't know what really wants. Maybe he is tired. Maybe he is old. Maybe he actually died a long time ago. He may have a much, much bigger plan that requires abortion.
- If people don't believe in God's rules, and don't believe in God at all, should they still have to follow them?